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Author Topic: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?  (Read 3900 times)

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Offline Maria Regina

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  • I have some Catholic friends who vacillate between attending the Mass offered by Msgr. Patrick Perez and the local Novus Ordo parishes of the LA Archdiocese. Other friends of mine who live elsewhere rotate between attending the SSPX and the FFSP Masses, seeing no difference between the two.

    Whenever they attend a Novus Ordo Mass with an entrance procession containing immodestly clad dancers who dance to the beat of modern non-ecclesiastical music during the entrance procession, or if they hear a sermon that is blasphemous and seemingly heretical, then they would walk out and "miss Mass" for that Sunday, saying their prayers at home. Afterwards, they would feel guilty and give me a call later on. While I am certainly not a priest, I guess they feel they must confess to someone.  I encourage them to go to confession to their regular confessor, if they have one. Unfortunately, most of my friends play Russian Roulette, going blindly to any priest who happens to be in the confessional room. If the priest offers bad advice, then I would get another call from them. :o :o  And so it goes, round and round.

    So, is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid? Does it impart sacramental grace? My friends would like to see some good arguments with solid references to infallible docuмents, not just passages from theological books or words from apparitions.

    Does it depend on the true intentions of the priest who said the NO Mass? I am not talking about Donatism.
    If that priest were to omit the consecratory prayers or if he were to change the very words of consecration, then I would have to believe that this "Mass" would be invalid.

    And yes, I have witnessed such invalid masses, and consequently, I have not partaken of their communion. These "priests" even preached communism in their sermons, and expressed doubt in God and in His sacraments. Indeed, several people, myself included, walked out of that church before the end of that "service."

    This is what led me to stop attending any novus ordo Masses as I never knew if the hosts in the tabernacle from past Masses were real or fake. In fact, I was taught never to partake of Communion if there were any serious doubt.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 12:30:37 PM »
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  • The validity is not important; it’s immoral because it’s uncatholic.  Your friends need to read Fr Wathen’s book “The Great Sacrilege”; he explains everything. 


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 12:40:37 PM »
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  • Thank you.

    Is there any website that has posted his book online?

    Otherwise, it can be purchased from Amazon for only $17.89

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895550148/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0895550148&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Great Sacrilege -  Paperback – June 1, 1971
    by James F. Wathen


    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 02:54:05 PM »
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  • The Great Sacrilege

    The law of Quo Primum is still the law and this law will remain in effect forever. Breaking the law of Quo Primum, the new mass is illegal, it is therefore illicit, therefore immoral, therefore a sin. Quo Primum is every trad's refuge.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #4 on: June 10, 2018, 04:05:52 PM »
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  • http://fatherwathen.com/

    This site has the revised, 2nd printing of the book.  Only $19


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #5 on: June 10, 2018, 09:16:39 PM »
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  • Well, I was under the Truth, that The Mass, when valid and a valid priest, bring us Christ Body and Blood.  This is the Power. That is what we have need of for our salvation!
    If it isn't valid, then you get zilch!  

    Please don't tell me that you are taking on New Order when it is Marxist/masonry.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #6 on: June 10, 2018, 09:36:42 PM »
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  • The Great Sacrilege

    The law of Quo Primum is still the law and this law will remain in effect forever. Breaking the law of Quo Primum, the new mass is illegal, it is therefore illicit, therefore immoral, therefore a sin. Quo Primum is every trad's refuge.
    Sadly, most modern traditional clerics deny its power to bind.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 03:06:36 AM »
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  • I believe that Archbishop Lefebvre recognized the validity of the Novus Ordo mass.
    Both Bishop Williamson and Fr. Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo mass. I believe that Fr Pfeiffer said that it is preferable to go to the Novus Ordo mass than going to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy or a Protestant service. By them saying this I believe that they recognize the validity, although not the desirability, of the Novus Ordo mass.
    What happens at mass? Through the transubstantiation that takes place at the consecration the bread and wine become the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. That means that when you receive Holy Communion you are entering into a special relationship with our Lord and Master, Jesus.
    During the life of St Teresa there was a priest who was having an affair with a woman in contradiction to his promise of celibacy. When I hear about this, sometimes I wonder where was the bishop? In any event she could see the control that the demons had over this priest even while he was saying mass (This was not a Novus Ordo priest. this was a priest who was saying the TLM) One day Jesus appeared to her. Jesus told her that He loved her. He said that His love for her was so great that he willingly allowed his Eucharistic body to pass through the filthy hands of this enemy of his in order so that He could be with her.
    Jesus love is not just for St Teresa of Avila alone. His great love is for everyone who is reading this. He wants to be sacramentally united with us. He is willing to pass through the hands of some really crazy priests so that he can be with you. That is why I say that the Novus Ordo mass is valid and it does impart grace.
     


    Offline TxTrad

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 07:15:06 AM »
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  • This is what ABL had to say about it:

    - "And we have the precise conviction that this new rite of Mass expresses a new faith, a faith which is not ours, a faith which is not the Catholic Faith.This New Mass is a symbol, is an expression, is an image of a new faith, of a Modernist faith… Now it is evident that the new rite, if I may say so, supposes another conception of the Catholic religion - another religion.” (Sermon, June 29, 1976)

    -“I will never celebrate the Mass according to the new rite, even under threat of ecclesiastical penalties and I will never advise anyone positively to participate actively in such a Mass." (Conference April 11, 1990) 

    -“The current Pope and bishops no longer hand down Our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather a sentimental, superficial, charismatic religiosity through which, as a general rule, the true grace of the Holy Ghost no longer passesThis new religion is not the Catholic religion; it is sterile, incapable of sanctifying society and the family.” (Spiritual Journey, p. ix)

    -“It is the new Mass in itself. It is not the priest who is saying it. It is not because he says it piously or anything that the new rite changes. It doesn’t change anything in the rite of the Mass. It is obvious that this new rite is a rite that has been made only to draw us closer to the Protestants. That is clear! (April 11, 1990)

    -“This Mass is poisoned, it is bad and it leads to the loss of faith little by little. We are clearly obliged to reject it.” (The Mass of All Times, p. 353)

    -“It must be understood immediately that we do not hold to the absurd idea that if the New Mass is valid, we are free to assist at it. The Church has always forbidden the faithful to assist at the Masses of heretics and schismatics even when they are valid. It is clear that no one can assist at sacrilegious Masses or at Masses which endanger our faith.…All these innovations are authorized. One can fairly say without exaggeration that most of these [new] Masses are sacrilegious acts which pervert the Faith by diminishing it. The de-sacralization is such that these Masses risk the loss of their supernatural character, their mysterium fidei; they would then be no more than acts of natural religion. These New Masses are not only incapable of fulfilling our Sunday obligation, but are such that we must apply to them the canonical rules which the Church customarily applies to communicatio in sacris with Orthodox Churches and Protestant sects.” (The New Mass and the Pope, November, 8, 1979)

    -“… this [new] rite is bad! Is bad, is bad. And the reason why this rite is bad in itself, is because it is poisoned. It is a poisoned rite! Mr. Salleron says it very well, here: "It is not a choice between two rites that could be good. It is a choice between a Catholic Rite and a rite that is practically a neighbor to Protestantism,” and thus, which attacks our Faith, the Catholic Faith! So, it is out of the question to encourage people to go to Mass in the new rite, because slowly, even without realizing it, they end up ecuмenist! It’s strange, but it's like that. It is a fact. Then, ask them questions on ecuмenism, on what they think of the relations with other religions and you will see! They are all ecuмenist. For the priest himself, the fact of saying this mass and celebrating it in a constant manner, even without thinking about anything, about its origin, or why it was made, turns him and the people who assist at it ecuмenist.” (Conference, April 11, 1990)

    -"This union which liberal Catholics want between the Church and the Revolution is an adulterous union — adulterous. This adulterous union can only beget bastards. Where are these bastards? They are [the new] rites. The [new] rite of Mass is a bastard rite. The sacraments are bastard sacraments.We no longer know whether they are sacraments that give grace. We no longer know if this Mass gives us the Body and the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. ... The priests emerging from the seminaries are bastard priests." (Homily preached at Lille, August29, 1976)

    -“The radical and extensive changes made in the Roman Rite of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and their resemblance to the modifications made by Luther oblige Catholics who remain loyal to their faith to question the validity of this new rite.”(Écône, February 2, 1977)

    -“Your perplexity takes perhaps the following form: may I assist at a sacrilegious Mass which is nevertheless valid, in the absence of any other, in order to satisfy my Sunday obligation? The answer is simple: these Masses cannot be the object of an obligation; we must moreover apply to them the rules of moral theology and Canon Law as regards the participation or the attendance at an action which endangers the faith or may be sacrilegious. The New Mass, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules, is subject to the same reservations since it is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism. It bears within it a poison harmful to the faith.” (An Open Letter to Confused Catholics, Ch. 4)

    -“The current problem of the Mass is an extremely serious problem for the Holy Church. I believe that if the dioceses and seminaries and works that are currently done are struck with sterility, it is because the recent deviations drew upon us the divine curse. All the efforts that are made to hang on to what is being lost, to reorganize, reconstruct, rebuild, all that is struck with sterility, because we no longer have the true source of holiness which is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Profaned as it is, it no longer gives grace, it no longer makes grace pass.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, August 1972, priestly retreat)

    -“We must not forget that the conciliar reforms of the liturgy, the reforms of the Bible, the changes in the internal structure of the Church, of the constitution of the Church—all these things are a result of the ecuмenical spirit. That is clear, since Protestants were present for the changes in the Mass—six Protestant ministers were photographed with Pope Paul VI who thanked them for having come to participate in the liturgical commission, which transformed our Catholic Mass!Everything was done in this ecuмenical spirit: liturgical reforms, catechetical reforms, an ecuмenical Bible—which is sold in the bookstore at the Vatican. There was then, a considerable Protestant influence.” (Conference in Germany, October 29, 1984)

    -“…if they are going to the New Mass—slowly, slowly they change their mind and become, slowly, slowly Protestant. It is very dangerous to go to the New Mass regularly, each week, because the New Mass is not some accidental change, but it is a whole orientation, a new definition of the Mass. It has not the same definition as the True Mass.” (Interview, St. Michael’s Mission, Atlanta, April 27, 1986)

    “… So, if someone asks me: “I only have Mass of St. Pius V once a month. So what should I do on the other Sundays? Should I go to the New Mass if I do not have the Mass of St. Pius V? ...
    I reply: Just because something is poisoned, obviously it is not going to poison you if you go on the odd occasion, but to go regularly on Sunday like that, little by little the notions will be lost, the dogmas will diminish. They will become accustomed to this ambiance which is no longer Catholic and they will very slowly lose the Faith in the Real Presence, lose the Faith in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and have a spirituality, since the prayers are changed and they have modified everything, in the sense of another spirituality. It is a new conception of Christian spirituality. There is no longer any ascetical effort, no longer a combat against sin, no longer a spiritual combat. There is a great need to combat against our own tendencies, against our faults, against everything which leads us to sin. So I would say to them: Listen, I cannot advise you to go to something which is evil. Myself, I would not go because I would not want to take in this atmosphere. I cannot. It is stronger than me. I cannot go. I would not go. So I advise you not to go." (Spiritual Conference at Econe, June 25, 1981)

    “The consequences of this state of mind or spirit spread within the Church, inside the Church, are deplorable, and are ruining and sapping the spiritual vitality of the Church. In conscience, all we can do is turn priests and faithful away from using the Novus Ordo Missae if we wish that the complete and whole Catholic Faith remains still living.” (Letter to John Paul II, April 5, 1983 - Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference #1, St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, April 24, 1983)

    “…that the evil in the New Mass is truly intrinsic, in the text … and not only something purely extrinsic, [in the abuses], this is certain. Precisely by this general effect which diminishes the proclamation of our faith, this diminution is present everywhere, in the words and in the actions. They wanted to be ecuмenical to such a point, to bring themselves closer to the Protestants in order to pray with them, that in the end they no longer affirm the Faith. And that is very grave. This diminution is excessively grave for our faith, how can it be otherwise? … Really, in conscience, I cannot advise anyone to attend this Mass, it is not possible.” (Conference at Econe, June 24, 1981)


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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 12:52:51 PM »
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  • The novus ordo, no matter what language is used, has a doubtfully valid consecration.  Even if the consecration is valid, it is FURTHER doubtful that it is a complete mass, due to all the prayers in the offertory, canon, communion which were deleted and altered.  Even if the consecration is valid, I believe it is not a mass, but just a communion service. 

    If you read what V2 theologians say about how they wanted to protestantize the mass, and change the meaning of 'sacrifice', it is logical to say that the purpose of the new mass is different than the TLM.  If you question people who grew up with the novus ordo and do not have an orthodox understanding of the mass, they interpret (and are taught) that the 'sacrifice' of Christ is His offering of Himself in communion to us, instead of the TRUE sacrifice of the cross.  The NEW understanding of the mass, is one that is centered on receiving Christ in Holy Communion, instead of the adoration and offering of Christ to God, in atonement for sin.  V2 replaced Good Friday with Holy Thursday and most novus ordo catholics have no idea this even happened.

    The novus ordo replaced the offering of God to God (God centered worship), with the offering of Christ to us (humanistic centered worship).  It falsely teaches that Christ's Holy Communion offering to us is the purpose of His death on Good Friday.  This is diabolically backwards!

    Christ's death on the cross on Good Friday IS the mass.  Holy Thursday and Holy Communion is an act of love, but it is NOT the sacrifice, nor is it the offering which appeases God for sin, or fulfills the 4 purposes of prayer.  Holy Communion is a SACRAMENT, which is PART OF the mass, but it is not the mass.  This is why the priest can say a private mass, with no communicants, because Holy Communion by the faithful is not required.  It is also why anyone can attend as many masses in one day as possible, but can only receive communion once per day - because the mass is the re-enactment of the sacrifice of Calvary, not the re-enactment of Holy Thursday.



    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 01:13:56 PM »
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  • For anyone who is interested, this is a short critical exam of the Novus Ordo Missae by Msg. Guerard des Lauriers.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 02:55:56 PM »
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  • Add to the uncertainty of the Novus Ordo that they also changed the ordination rite and the formula for the consecration of bishops, and you have three strikes and you are out. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 03:32:11 PM »
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  • For anyone who is interested, this is a short critical exam of the Novus Ordo Missae by Msg. Guerard des Lauriers.

    He was a brilliant theologian.

    here's a key passage:
    Quote
    All this, in short, changes the modus significandi of the words of Consecration–how they show forth the sacramental action taking place. The priest now pronounces the formulas for Consecration as part of an historical narrative, rather than as Christ’s representative issuing the affirmative judgment “This is My Body.”

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 03:37:10 PM »
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  • Add to the uncertainty of the Novus Ordo that they also changed the ordination rite and the formula for the consecration of bishops, and you have three strikes and you are out.

    Yep ... three layers of positive doubt.  Very interestingly, they changed the invalidating words of consecration "for you and for all" back now to the correct translation "for you and for many" in the vernacular ... now that nearly all of the priests ordained in the Traditional Rite are retired or have passed away.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #14 on: June 12, 2018, 04:13:22 PM »
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  • The consecration of the wine's formula is still wrong, with the phrase "mystery of faith" moved and added after the consecration is over.  There was already an ecuмenical council which declared the words required for the consecration of the wine.  So this change adds another doubt and is probably invalid.

    Added to that the fact that 70% of the offertory prayers were deleted and the most of the canon/communion prayers deleted/edited.  This is a further invalidating aspect of the mass, since the Offertory is a PRINCIPLE part of the mass, which affects the purpose of the offering.  If the consecration is performed validly, but the offertory is so edited that the purpose is 1) not to offer the consecration for the satisfaction of sins, or 2) a sacrifice to God in adoration of His glory, or 3) for contrition for sins, then the PURPOSE of the mass is not catholic, it's not a prayer, it's not what Christ offered at Calvary...ergo, it's not a mass.

    The offertory (and the canon prayers) are more important than most think.