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Author Topic: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?  (Read 3907 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 08:45:58 PM »
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    • Christ told Peter 3 times to feed His sheep.  Although the new Mass is a compromise, it is not possible (in my mind) that it is utterly defective because the Church cannot fail.  Yes, man failed God.  But God does not fail man.  Jesus Christ feeds His sheep in the Novus Ordo because that was part of His mission.  Pius V encyclical applies to the prelates who sold out the Mass, but not the people per se.  While the NO is devoid of many prayers, there is no reason to believe that Christ abandoned His people in the sense that they get no grace at the Eucharist. Or that Christ refuses forgiveness at NO confessions. Or that Mary refuses to hear NO rosaries.  It isn't about the priest, nor even the liturgy, it's about Christ fulfilling to the end everything He promised.  The NO is effectively the dis-location of Christ on the cross.  And the thing that held Christ's Body together, His Flesh, also holds His Church together. No doubt this ruffles some feathers out there, but I'm not defending the Novus Ordo or Francis.  I'm defending Christ and His commitment to His people.  
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #16 on: June 12, 2018, 09:03:54 PM »
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    • There is reason to believe that people abandoned Christ.  NO has nothing to offer.  Chapter 12 of Daniel says the Sacrificial Mass will come to an end.  We are very close.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #17 on: June 12, 2018, 09:21:17 PM »
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    • Scripture cannot fail us, so Daniel 12 will come to pass.  We cannot know for certain the time is now.  Seems that way, but we can't really know.  Not even Archbishop Lefebvre thought the NO didn't provide the grace of the Sacrament.  If Jesus is present, He feeds His sheep.  In other words, I'm answering the OP with my opinion based on the veracity of Christ's promise. I know of a priest who said both the NO and Latin Masses. He was a very saintly man and recently died.  Father rose at 3:00 am every morning and spent 3 hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament every single day, then said mass at 6:00 am.  They found him passed on at the communion rail at 5:30 am.  I'm not saying this is proof for the graces in the NO, still, there remains in the NO many who are loyal to the teachings of the Church in the sense that they go to Church on Sunday, confess regularly, receive Communion and pray the rosary daily.  Are we so certain they are outside the Church because they stayed with their parishes and didn't imbibe the false teachings?   
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 09:44:59 PM »
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    • Happenby, no one is saying there is no grace imparted at a NOM.  There’s grace imparted at some Protestant services - it’s called actual grace.  Even if a NO service has a valid communion, that doesn’t mean there was a valid (or moral, or perfect) mass. 

    The point is, the Eucharist is separate from the Mass.  Christ promised us His Church would survive until the end time; but it’s easily arguable that the Church is being preserved in Tradition; not in the novus ordo.  

    Japanese Catholics kept the Faith for decades without priests/mass. Novus ordo people can keep the faith too, without a true mass. 
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 10:25:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 12, 2018, 09:44:59 PM
    Happenby, no one is saying there is no grace imparted at a NOM.  There’s grace imparted at some Protestant services - it’s called actual grace.  Even if a NO service has a valid communion, that doesn’t mean there was a valid (or moral, or perfect) mass.

    The point is, the Eucharist is separate from the Mass.  Christ promised us His Church would survive until the end time; but it’s easily arguable that the Church is being preserved in Tradition; not in the novus ordo.  

    Japanese Catholics kept the Faith for decades without priests/mass. Novus ordo people can keep the faith too, without a true mass.
    The OP wondered if there was Sacramental grace imparted at the NO.  Personally, I believe there is.  Fr. Pfeiffer and others do not believe there is.  I agree the Church is more faithfully preserved in Tradition, which is why I reside within Tradition.  But, if the NO Mass confects the Sacrament, it is a true Mass.  This is new for me after much reflection.  5-6 Popes say it is a true Mass, so, either I have to assume the Church is without a Pope for the past 50 years, or the NO is a Mass.  Don't get me wrong, the NO and I do not get along well at all.  I have many misgivings about this conclusion but I'm not sure how else to understand what has happened in the Church.  If the NO is false, then Christ was hoodwinked out of 99% of the laity and by trickery of His own Pope, He left them to the wolves for not being perfectly understanding.  That doesn't seem possible when the confusion is as great as it has been.   It's true, most of the laity lost their faith along the way, but that's their fault.  It cannot be the Church's fault for failing to continue to be the Church for them.  I remain open to correction but I feel I must place the blame where it belongs, on individuals, not the Church.     
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 11:49:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 12, 2018, 12:52:51 PM
    The novus ordo, no matter what language is used, has a doubtfully valid consecration.  Even if the consecration is valid, it is FURTHER doubtful that it is a complete mass, due to all the prayers in the offertory, canon, communion which were deleted and altered.  Even if the consecration is valid, I believe it is not a mass, but just a communion service.

    If you read what V2 theologians say about how they wanted to protestantize the mass, and change the meaning of 'sacrifice', it is logical to say that the purpose of the new mass is different than the TLM.  If you question people who grew up with the novus ordo and do not have an orthodox understanding of the mass, they interpret (and are taught) that the 'sacrifice' of Christ is His offering of Himself in communion to us, instead of the TRUE sacrifice of the cross.  The NEW understanding of the mass, is one that is centered on receiving Christ in Holy Communion, instead of the adoration and offering of Christ to God, in atonement for sin.  V2 replaced Good Friday with Holy Thursday and most novus ordo catholics have no idea this even happened.

    The novus ordo replaced the offering of God to God (God centered worship), with the offering of Christ to us (humanistic centered worship).  It falsely teaches that Christ's Holy Communion offering to us is the purpose of His death on Good Friday.  This is diabolically backwards!

    Christ's death on the cross on Good Friday IS the mass.  Holy Thursday and Holy Communion is an act of love, but it is NOT the sacrifice, nor is it the offering which appeases God for sin, or fulfills the 4 purposes of prayer.  Holy Communion is a SACRAMENT, which is PART OF the mass, but it is not the mass.  This is why the priest can say a private mass, with no communicants, because Holy Communion by the faithful is not required.  It is also why anyone can attend as many masses in one day as possible, but can only receive communion once per day - because the mass is the re-enactment of the sacrifice of Calvary, not the re-enactment of Holy Thursday.
    IN all of these the Archbishop recognizes that the Novus Ordo is valid. With this validity comes the sacramental presence of Jesus. For those of us who live in places that are far and away from the opportunity to attend a TLM. I am not asking you to trust in the priest or the Pope, but rather in the promise of Jesus himself who said, "this is my body, this is my blood" and also, "If youeat of my flesh and drink of my blood you will have life everlasting." Where the mass is valid you have the real presence of Jesus. It is in Him that I ask you to trust.      
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #21 on: June 12, 2018, 11:50:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 12, 2018, 09:44:59 PM
    Happenby, no one is saying there is no grace imparted at a NOM.  There’s grace imparted at some Protestant services - it’s called actual grace.  Even if a NO service has a valid communion, that doesn’t mean there was a valid (or moral, or perfect) mass.

    The point is, the Eucharist is separate from the Mass.  Christ promised us His Church would survive until the end time; but it’s easily arguable that the Church is being preserved in Tradition; not in the novus ordo.  

    Japanese Catholics kept the Faith for decades without priests/mass. Novus ordo people can keep the faith too, without a true mass.
    I disagree, the Eucharist is not separate from the mass. Without the Mass there is no Eucharist. 
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #22 on: June 12, 2018, 11:59:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on June 12, 2018, 09:03:54 PM
    There is reason to believe that people abandoned Christ.  NO has nothing to offer.  Chapter 12 of Daniel says the Sacrificial Mass will come to an end.  We are very close.
    The end of the sacrifice of Daniel refers to the end of the Jєωιѕн sacrifice. Jesus said to the apostles before he ascended into Heaven, "Lo, I will be with you untiol the end of the ages." and earlier to Peter, "The gates of Hell shall not prevail."
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 05:57:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on June 12, 2018, 08:45:58 PM
    Christ told Peter 3 times to feed His sheep.  Although the new Mass is a compromise, it is not possible (in my mind) that it is utterly defective because the Church cannot fail.  
    The Church has not failed, we know this because we still have the True Mass and certainly valid priests and sacraments. The NO is the product of the Church's enemies who found their way within the Church, but it is not the product of the Church, do not be deceived because like the Church on earth, the True Mass and sacraments will last until the end of time. As you said, God does not fail man.


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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #24 on: June 13, 2018, 07:31:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on June 12, 2018, 11:49:08 PM
    IN all of these the Archbishop recognizes that the Novus Ordo is valid.    
    That might mean something to those that think the ABL was some kind of a perfect traditionalist saint all along, but in reality, ABL was a cat that fell, and in the end managed to land on his feet. What do I mean by that?
    ABL celebrated the Novus Ordo mass for quite some time till his seminarians convinced him not to do it. ABL signed all the docuмents of Vatican II. ABL stopped the worldwide response against Vatican II, by obeying Paul VI. ABL passed on to his seminarians the teaching that is the pillar of Vatican II, his belief that people in any religion can be saved by their belief in a God the rewards, which to this day is the Achilles heal of the SSPX, bringing them back to the counterfeit VatII church. If people in any religion can be saved by their belief in a God the rewards, then there are no errors in Vatican II, for it dogmatizes the false theory. That is why ABL signed everything.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 08:43:55 AM »
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    • Happenby and Poche, you are missing the point.  You assume that just because the consecration MIGHT BE valid (Card Ottaviani, one of the top theologians said this is doubtful) that the mass is pleasing to God.  No, no, no.  The Eucharist is a sacrament, and mass is mass.  Two TOTALLY different things.  

    If the priest starts a TLM and dies right after the consecration, canon law says the mass is incomplete, therefore not a mass.  

    If a priest says a TLM but does not receive his personal communion, there is no mass.  If the priest omits the Offertory in a TLM, there is no mass, even though the consecration would be valid.  

    How much more is there doubt about a NOM, wherein the Offertory, Canon and Communion prayers have been gutted, and the words “sacrifice”, “offering”, “Oblation”, “sin”, etc have been TOTALLY DELETED?  These changes affect the mass, even if they don’t affect the consecration/Eucharist.  

    The mass is the mass; it is for God and its intentions and purpose are affected by the 3 PRINCIPLE PARTS - offertory, canon, communion.  The mass is bigger than just the consecration.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 09:23:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on June 12, 2018, 08:45:58 PM
    Although the new Mass is a compromise, it is not possible (in my mind) that it is utterly defective because the Church cannot fail. 

    If it came from the Church, then it cannot be defective at all ... and not just "utterly" defective.  That's one of the principles which drives sedevacantism.  If it's defective, then it could not have come from the Church.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 10:55:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 13, 2018, 08:43:55 AM
    Happenby and Poche, you are missing the point.  You assume that just because the consecration MIGHT BE valid (Card Ottaviani, one of the top theologians said this is doubtful) that the mass is pleasing to God.  No, no, no.  The Eucharist is a sacrament, and mass is mass.  Two TOTALLY different things.  

    If the priest starts a TLM and dies right after the consecration, canon law says the mass is incomplete, therefore not a mass.  

    If a priest says a TLM but does not receive his personal communion, there is no mass.  If the priest omits the Offertory in a TLM, there is no mass, even though the consecration would be valid.  

    How much more is there doubt about a NOM, wherein the Offertory, Canon and Communion prayers have been gutted, and the words “sacrifice”, “offering”, “Oblation”, “sin”, etc have been TOTALLY DELETED?  These changes affect the mass, even if they don’t affect the consecration/Eucharist.  

    The mass is the mass; it is for God and its intentions and purpose are affected by the 3 PRINCIPLE PARTS - offertory, canon, communion.  The mass is bigger than just the consecration.  
    They are indeed missing the point. The new order service was not created to serve the purposes of the Catholic Church. It is in fact a tool whereby the Catholic Religion might be weakened and eventually destroyed.  It is not Catholic and has no place in the Church.  It's validity is unimportant when exposed next to this fact. It was created to be almost impossible to pick out valid parts from the invalid. And while every one keeps arguing its construction, it has been allowed to remain in the Church and to do its work of deception and destruction. And still today, no one seems to get it.  
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #28 on: June 13, 2018, 12:17:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on June 13, 2018, 10:55:02 AM
    They are indeed missing the point. The new order service was not created to serve the purposes of the Catholic Church. It is in fact a tool whereby the Catholic Religion might be weakened and eventually destroyed.  It is not Catholic and has no place in the Church.  It's validity is unimportant when exposed next to this fact. It was created to be almost impossible to pick out valid parts from the invalid. And while every one keeps arguing its construction, it has been allowed to remain in the Church and to do its work of deception and destruction. And still today, no one seems to get it.  
    I came across an ancient copy of  the 1904 Lutheran Hymnal, and out of curiosity, I looked up their communion service only to discover that it is almost word for word the same as the English Novus Ordo. The only real difference is that the Thee, Thou, and Thine have been replaced by you and your. I showed this book to my confessor, and after looking at the Lutheran Hymnal Creed and the Offertory and Communion prayers, which were the same as those found in the Novus Ordo, my confessor tossed that book into the fireplace and advised me that he would never celebrate the Novus Ordo again. His superiors gave him permission to celebrate only  the Traditional Latin Mass.

    If anyone finds a copy of this 1904 Lutheran Hymnal, it might help persuade other priests to abandon the Novus Ordo..
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the Novus Ordo English Mass valid and does it impart grace?
    « Reply #29 on: June 13, 2018, 12:19:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 13, 2018, 07:31:20 AM

    ABL celebrated the Novus Ordo mass for quite some time till his seminarians convinced him not to do it.

    Do you have verifiable evidence that +ABL celebrated the Novus Ordo, and "for quite some time?" That's new to me.
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