Author Topic: Is the CMRI schismatic? (Read 45759 times)

andysloan · « **Reply #255 on:** December 16, 2014, 05:54:35 PM »

"As a sacrament of intimate union with God, the Church is in Christ, outside Whom there is no salvation."

St Pope John Paul II

"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from this genuine and single source ... it reaches the whole world. Dear young people, and members of the faithful ... we have to be conscious of and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, contained in the phrase consecrated by tradition: There is no salvation outside the Church. From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined, in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ."

St Pope John Paul II

"We are born into the Church. She communicates to us the riches of life and grace entrusted to her. She generates us by Baptism, feeds us with the Sacraments and the Word of God, prepares us for our mission, leads us to the plan of God: she is the reason for our existence as Christians. We are her children. With just pride, we call her our Mo- ther, repeating a title which has come down through the centuries from the earliest times. She must therefore be called upon, respected, and served; for no one can have God for his Father if he does not have the Church for his Mother. One cannot love Christ without loving the Church Christ loves. The spirit of the Church is the spirit of Christ, and to the extent to which one loves the Church of Christ does he possess the Holy Spirit."

St Pope John Paul II

Stubborn · « **Reply #256 on:** December 23, 2014, 04:44:05 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: magisterium
Quote from: Nado
What is the prime support for this claim against the CMRI?

A short answer is that Bp. Thuc attempted to consecrate a bishop on 01/11/1976 at Palmar de Troya and ipso facto excommunicated himself by this schismatic act. He could only have his excommunication that he publicly admitted he incurred, lifted by a true Pope, which Thuc never did. Logically he was a schismatic when he again "consecrated" others by his own simony driven mandate in the future, which included those that eventually linked up with the CMRI tribe.

What you are saying begs the question. If the pope was false, what was done was perfectly understandable. The real issue is to talk about whether the man was a false pope, and then everything else fits into place.

Yes, dwell on the "impossible to prove fact" in order to justify two wrongs making a right.

Stubborn · « **Reply #257 on:** December 23, 2014, 06:00:58 PM »

Quote from: Nado

You just begged the question on that, too. I am saying IF...THEREFORE, and you didn't address that hypothetical.

The question is rhetorical because no matter how you try to weasel, you can do nothing about it. There can be no "IF...THEREFORE" because Pope Paul IV, a valid pope, said there can be no "IF...THEREFORE". Why don't you believe him? Do you think he was also an imposter?

Quote from: Nado

So, you believe Francis is the true pope, and you condemn the Novus Ordo....how does that schizophrenic theology work?

I don't know if he is a "true pope" or not and neither do you, but I know we are not permitted to go around saying he is not and if you had any faith in you, you'd know that too.
You view it as schizophrenic theology because of your popolatry syndrome and your inordinate obsession with whether or not popes are popes.

Stubborn · « **Reply #258 on:** December 24, 2014, 02:53:30 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Nado

You just begged the question on that, too. I am saying IF...THEREFORE, and you didn't address that hypothetical.

The question is rhetorical because no matter how you try to weasel, you can do nothing about it. There can be no "IF...THEREFORE" because Pope Paul IV, a valid pope, said there can be no "IF...THEREFORE". Why don't you believe him? Do you think he was also an imposter?

Quote from: Nado

So, you believe Francis is the true pope, and you condemn the Novus Ordo....how does that schizophrenic theology work?

I don't know if he is a "true pope" or not and neither do you, but I know we are not permitted to go around saying he is not and if you had any faith in you, you'd know that too.
You view it as schizophrenic theology because of your popolatry syndrome and your inordinate obsession with whether or not popes are popes.

Stubborn is as stubborn does.

What is that - another one of your Novus Ordo slogans?

How about answering why you, a dogmatic SV, do not listen to Pope Paul IV about none in this world being allowed to judge the pope.

Stubborn · « **Reply #259 on:** December 26, 2014, 06:23:03 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
How about answering why you, a dogmatic SV, do not listen to Pope Paul IV about none in this world being allowed to judge the pope.

I say the very same thing as Popes, Saints and Doctors of the Church about rejecting a man who was a pope but became a heretic, and you accuse me of heresy....and not them! Really, go check yourself in to see if it's Alzheimers.

You say the very same thing all SVs say - which completely contradicts what Pope Paul IV taught - "The Roman Pontiff.....who may judge all and be judged by none in this world,"

His Constitution is, according to SVs, infallible - so with that fact in mind, please present whatever evidence you can that proves the above infallible words of a genuine pope can be disobeyed by either Cardinals, Priests, a Counsel, lay folk or ?

I can tell you right now you will never be able to prove your claim that you "say the very same thing as Popes" because there has never been a pope that stupid.

So to be clear, 1) you need to provide proof that Popes (any pope will do), said the very same thing as you, ie that a pope can be deposed and a new one elected in his place. And 2) you need to answer why you, a dogmatic SV, will not listen to the infallible teaching of Pope Paul IV when he taught that none in this world is permitted to judge the pope.

Stubborn · « **Reply #260 on:** December 26, 2014, 10:32:16 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
How about answering why you, a dogmatic SV, do not listen to Pope Paul IV about none in this world being allowed to judge the pope.

I say the very same thing as Popes, Saints and Doctors of the Church about rejecting a man who was a pope but became a heretic, and you accuse me of heresy....and not them! Really, go check yourself in to see if it's Alzheimers.

You say the very same thing all SVs say - which completely contradicts what Pope Paul IV taught - "The Roman Pontiff.....who may judge all and be judged by none in this world,"

His Constitution is, according to SVs, infallible - so with that fact in mind, please present whatever evidence you can that proves the above infallible words of a genuine pope can be disobeyed by either Cardinals, Priests, a Counsel, lay folk or ?

I can tell you right now you will never be able to prove your claim that you "say the very same thing as Popes" because there has never been a pope that stupid.

So to be clear, 1) you need to provide proof that Popes (any pope will do), said the very same thing as you, ie that a pope can be deposed and a new one elected in his place. And 2) you need to answer why you, a dogmatic SV, will not listen to the infallible teaching of Pope Paul IV when he taught that none in this world is permitted to judge the pope.

It's clear to everyone that you misapply what Paul IV said, and clear you should be getting the message with the fact that you think Saints, Doctors and Popes have gone contrary to him, and just don't want to face the facts, Stubborn.

What is clear to everyone - or should be, is the fact that you cannot quote a single pope who says what you explicitly and falseheartedly accused "Popes" of saying. Again, you will never find any pope who would be so stupid to say such a stupid thing - hence, the real reason you chose to reply with another circular and topic side tracking reply.

It is also clear to everyone that of your own volition you promote further disobedience of the explicit teaching of the Church which literally declares that the Roman Pontiff may be judged by none in this world.

The very fact that you call yourself a sedevacantist demonstrates this hypocritical disobedience. Dwell on that fact for as long as you need to and repeat the above words from Pope Paul IV 10,000 times a day until you believe them. It may take you a few years or more, but once you accept the truth, it will all be worth it I assure you.

Stubborn · « **Reply #261 on:** December 26, 2014, 02:21:44 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Nado
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
How about answering why you, a dogmatic SV, do not listen to Pope Paul IV about none in this world being allowed to judge the pope.

I say the very same thing as Popes, Saints and Doctors of the Church about rejecting a man who was a pope but became a heretic, and you accuse me of heresy....and not them! Really, go check yourself in to see if it's Alzheimers.

You say the very same thing all SVs say - which completely contradicts what Pope Paul IV taught - "The Roman Pontiff.....who may judge all and be judged by none in this world,"

His Constitution is, according to SVs, infallible - so with that fact in mind, please present whatever evidence you can that proves the above infallible words of a genuine pope can be disobeyed by either Cardinals, Priests, a Counsel, lay folk or ?

I can tell you right now you will never be able to prove your claim that you "say the very same thing as Popes" because there has never been a pope that stupid.

So to be clear, 1) you need to provide proof that Popes (any pope will do), said the very same thing as you, ie that a pope can be deposed and a new one elected in his place. And 2) you need to answer why you, a dogmatic SV, will not listen to the infallible teaching of Pope Paul IV when he taught that none in this world is permitted to judge the pope.

It's clear to everyone that you misapply what Paul IV said, and clear you should be getting the message with the fact that you think Saints, Doctors and Popes have gone contrary to him, and just don't want to face the facts, Stubborn.

What is clear to everyone - or should be, is the fact that you cannot quote a single pope who says what you explicitly and falseheartedly accused "Popes" of saying. Again, you will never find any pope who would be so stupid to say such a stupid thing - hence, the real reason you chose to reply with another circular and topic side tracking reply.

It is also clear to everyone that of your own volition you promote further disobedience of the explicit teaching of the Church which literally declares that the Roman Pontiff may be judged by none in this world.

The very fact that you call yourself a sedevacantist demonstrates this hypocritical disobedience. Dwell on that fact for as long as you need to and repeat the above words from Pope Paul IV 10,000 times a day until you believe them. It may take you a few years or more, but once you accept the truth, it will all be worth it I assure you.

Quote from: St. Francis de Sales
"Now when he is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church must either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See, and must say as S. Peter did: Let another take his bishopric."

So, you are saying that St. Francis, around 1600, violated what Pope Paul IV taught infallibly about 40 years previous?

Yes, or No?

Did I ask you to post something from St. Francis?

No.

You said you are saying the same thing thing that popes say - which in and of itself is an obvious lie that only a benighted person would say.

Therefore, I asked you to:

1) provide proof that Popes (any pope will do), said the very same thing as you, ie that a pope can be deposed and a new one elected in his place. And 2) you need to answer why you, a dogmatic SV, will not listen to the infallible teaching of Pope Paul IV when he taught that none in this world is permitted to judge the pope.

Further, why do you, a dogmatic sedevacantist, pit the infallible teaching of Pope Paul IV against the words of St. Francis? Who do you think has authority over whom? Why are you even sedevacantist if you reject infallible teaching of a genuine pope in favor of a contradictory teaching from St. Francis?

Try with every ounce of strength you have in you to actually answer the question - IOW, do everything in your power to avoid weaseling this time.

And why don't you try quoting a saint who was also sedevacantist - in fact, you really should limit yourself to only posting quotes from sedevacantist saints from now on. I'd be interested to see what you learn from doing that.

Stubborn · « **Reply #262 on:** December 26, 2014, 04:46:50 PM »

Quote from: Nado

I believe I have given what you asked for. If not, then I cannot provide. If that is the end of that, then I am asking you for a Yes or No to my own question about what St. Francis de Sales taught.

No, clearly you have not given what I asked for - because no pope would be so stupid as to say what you say - which is why you cannot provide it.
So no, that is not the end of that, because you have not admitted you lied. Which means, we have no assurance other than you admitting that no pope ever said what you said, that you will cease slandering popes by putting heretical words in their mouths they never said.

Again, St. Francis is irrelevant. He has already been judged and the Church canonized him a saint - but not for the quote you chose, that's for sure.

What is relevant is that unlike St. Francis, without a doubt you KNOW what Pope Paul IV, a genuine pope, taught, yet you facetiously act as though Pope Paul IV's teaching is akin to that of V2, ie ambiguous and un-understandable.

In your own mind, this facetious act of yours permits you to reject what he, a genuine pope, infallibly taught - yet all that proves is that your entire position as a sedevacantist is a giant farce because if you'll ignore what Pope Paul IV, a certainly genuine and true pope taught, it doesn't matter to you if the Chair is vacant or not - you're going to to what you're going to do no matter what the Church teaches and no matter what any pope says. All you've proven is that you are a hypocrite.

Stubborn · « **Reply #263 on:** December 26, 2014, 06:09:51 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Stubborn, take a look at my signature, again: quote from holy Scriptures. We should shun being "stubborn", but that is what you apparently are doing.

I have given quotes from approved Catholic sources including canonized Saints, declared "Doctors of the Church", and popes.....and you are outright condemning them...no, no, no, don't object! You are. You are basically in the category of your fellow Feeneyite, Cantarella, a "special olympics" neo-theologian who is condemning the impossible, like an agnostic.

Look at your own signature - you have it there for pharisaical reasons and nothing else. Not sure who you think you are fooling but most everyone here already knows that to be the truth.

You cannot provide any popes who said what you say they said: "I say the very same thing as Popes" and you know it - that makes you a liar, and a hypocrite - and you know that too.

You have zero approved sources, the only approved source for you would be a sedevacantist saint - well, lets see a quote from one of them. Or how about a sedevacantist pope, not that you would even listen to what he had to say.

No. You need to admit that you lied, that there are no popes who say what you said, that they'd need to be completely stupid to say what you said - until then, you will remain an enemy of the Church for your lying slanderous accusations against the popes and their Perennial teachings.

Stubborn · « **Reply #264 on:** December 27, 2014, 02:38:18 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
Again, St. Francis is irrelevant. He has already been judged and the Church canonized him a saint - but not for the quote you chose, that's for sure.

What is relevant is that unlike St. Francis, without a doubt you KNOW what Pope Paul IV, a genuine pope, taught, yet you facetiously act as though Pope Paul IV's teaching is akin to that of V2, ie ambiguous and un-understandable.

You are clearly rejecting the quote, even though the Church Herself did not. When the canonization process was going through, you are trying to say St. Francis taught publicly against Infallible teaching and nobody in the hierarchy noticed! How stupid of them! Then, after over 100 years go by, in 1877, his works were again scrutinized by the Church, and he was declared a "Doctor of the Church" because of his teachings....and nobody noticed then that the following quote was against infallible teaching of the Church! How stupid of everyone not to notice!

Quote from: St. Francis de Sales
"we do not say that the Pope cannot err in his private opinions, as did John XXII.; or be altogether a heretic, as perhaps Honorius was. Now when he is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church must either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See, and must say as St. Peter did: Let another take his bishopric."

This quote was in the Saint's work entitled "Controversies" and Pope Pius IX then declared on that occasion of declaring him a Doctor that this work is "a full and complete demonstration of the Catholic religion". How stupid of him? But you are smarter, right "Stubborn"?

No, you still cannot reject what a genuine pope said in favor of what St. Francis said - do you know why?

Quote from: Nado

Then we have 10 years later when the Holy Office under Pope Leo XIII scrutinized and approved a work of canon law for the clergy (in its 5th edition), and approved of the same teaching. Poor pope and his stupid Holy Office? Poor clergy throughout the United States who didn't notice? If only that had a man named "Stubborn" from the 21st century to warn them of their HUGE mistake against infallible doctrine!

No, Pope Leo XIII never approved any such teaching, all you've proved is that you've believed your own lies for too long.

Quote from: Nado

St. Robert Bellarmine taught the same and was declared a Doctor in the 20th century.

Stubborn, you simply do not understand the difference between judging a man who is here and now a pope, and judging a man who is here and now already not a pope. Which is why what Paul IV wrote was true, and why what the Popes, Saints/Doctors have said, that I have mentioned here, are true also. Because of your lack of understanding you end up pitting popes against popes.

No, you invent fairy tails and believe your own lies.

FYI, there never has and never will be a pope so stupid as to say what you said because there is no pope so stupid as to relinquish his authority to the whims of his subjects. While that stupidity is rampant within your brain, you never have nor will you ever be able to produce any such quote from any pope, much less from popes.

Again, stop your lies, or go ahead and actually post what popes have actually said that you say you are repeating. After all, you are the liar who said; "I say the very same thing as Popes" so let's see exactly what popes have said.

Let's see you post some quotes from popes who would grant his subjects the permission and authority over himself to depose himself and elect a new pope for themselves - as I said, you will need to find popes who were sedevacantist and quote them - do you understand that?

Stubborn · « **Reply #265 on:** December 28, 2014, 04:55:59 AM »

Aside from your lies, that's all you have.

obertray imondday · « **Reply #266 on:** December 28, 2014, 10:05:41 AM »

op- is the cmri schismatic? Yes, because they believe in salvation outside of the Catholic Church. The novus ordo teaches all men are united to Christ by the Incarnation, the cmri teaches that all invincibly ignorant men through no fault of their own are united to Christ by Incarnation as long as they follow their conscience, and are morally upright. They believe the same things as the schismatic novus ordo. They both refuse unity with the chair of Peter (Catholic Dogma), but the cmri is more of an evil sect because of the deception.

In reading ALOT of posts (crisis in the Church) the last week on this website it is sad . The common theme is the novus ordo is wrong, false, heretical etc... but all those arguing with each other adhere (are in communion) to it somehow. There are those who think heretics are still Catholics and remain in communion with the NO, and those who refuse unity, but believe the same things the NO teaches, i.e. out of one side of their mouth promote the pre-Vatican II theologians(heretics) and out of the other side of their mouths condemn the Vatican II religion that for the most part says the same things that were taught back in the 40-50's.

Romans 1 explains why this punishment is happening full scale today.

Stubborn · « **Reply #267 on:** December 29, 2014, 04:05:59 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Stubborn
Aside from your lies, that's all you have.

You need serious help if that is the way you perceive what St. Francis de Sales and Pope Pius IX (among so many others) clearly taught.

"The Roman Pontiff.....who may judge all and be judged by none in this world". - Pope Paul IV

It could not be said with any more authority or any clearer.

Cantarella · « **Reply #268 on:** December 29, 2014, 01:33:35 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Nado
Quote from: Stubborn
Aside from your lies, that's all you have.

You need serious help if that is the way you perceive what St. Francis de Sales and Pope Pius IX (among so many others) clearly taught.

"The Roman Pontiff.....who may judge all and be judged by none in this world". - Pope Paul IV

It could not be said with any more authority or any clearer.

And infallibly declared in Unac Sanctam, 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII:

""Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. "

MyrnaM · « **Reply #269 on:** December 29, 2014, 02:40:11 PM »

Cantarella, your quote here ---> "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. "

Only applies if we have a Roman Pontiff.

To thinks as you do, denies the perpetuity of the Church. God's promise, you believed He failed.