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Author Topic: Is the CMRI schismatic?  (Read 45832 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Is the CMRI schismatic?
« Reply #225 on: December 13, 2014, 10:30:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella

    1) First, let's start for the title:
    Quote

    THE SALVATION OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH



    Given that the rest of the article explains how there is no salvation outside the Church, I think the title can be excused.  The title doesn't actually say that there is salvation outside the Church.  In fact, here is a thought experiment:

    Quote
    Title: THE SALVATION OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    Article: Dedicated to the memory of Fr. Leonard Feeney
    Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus -- Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.  QED.


    Right away I see that you fail to acknowledge that Fr. Barbara is making a distinction between inside/outside and membership/non-membership.  The article explains that membership involves receiving baptism of water and professing the Catholic Faith whereas being inside the Church involves "all those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.  These are those who have theological faith, possess the divine life and are in a state of grace."  Not all members of the Church are saved but all those who are inside the Church are certainly saved.  So Fr. Barbara is not claiming that anyone outside the Church is saved.  Personally, I think I would have chosen a better title but it is what it is.  It certainly is not heretical if understood correctly in the context of the entire article.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    2)  
    Quote
    In the face of this, must one believe that everyone,
     without exception, who does not OFFICIALLY belong to the Church
     by means of the reception of Baptism and the public profession
     of the Catholic faith, is damned?  Not at all.  


    Council of Trent, Canons of Baptism (Canon 2)

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott, Part 2, Chapter 5, Sec 20, The Necessity for Membership of the Church, is written:

    Quote
    Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation. (De fide.) ... The necessity for belonging to the Church is not merely a necessity of precept (necessitas praecepti), but also a necessity of means (nec. medii), as the comparison with the Ark, the means of salvation from the biblical flood, plainly shows.  The necessity of means is, however, not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one.  In special circuмstances, namely, in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership of the Church can be replaced by the desire (votum) for the same.
     The book has an nihil obstat and imprimatur dated 1954.

    Likewise, Monsignor G. Van Noort gives a similar although much more detailed treatment.  On p. 262 of Dogmatic Theology Vol. 2 - Christ's Church he writes, "[A]ll the fathers vehemently teach that the Church alone leads to salvation; nonetheless they admit that not all those who are actually outside the Church's membership are necessarily damned."  This book has a nihil obstat and imprimatur dated 1956.

    So Fr. Barbara's treatment is in line with approved theology manuals.  Therefore it is not heretical.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    3)
    Quote

     THE EXTRAORDINARY MANNER ...for salvation

         If the Church teaches that the sacraments instituted by
     the Son of God made man oblige the Father to give His graces to
     whomsoever validly receives them, she has never taught that His
     generosity is restricted to this methodology.  


    Council of Trent, Canons of Baptism, Canon 5:

    If anyone says that Baptism of optional, that is not necessary for salvation, let it be anathema.


    You must have missed where Fr. Barbara wrote this: "Now, among the things that are pleasing to God must be included the necessary obligation of receiving the Baptism of water."  So in fact, Fr. Barbara is not guilty of saying that Baptism is optional.  Rather, he understands the distinction between an absolute necessity of means and a hypothetical necessity of means.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    4)
    Quote
    It is then clear that God, who has promised to give His graces through these ordinary means of the sacraments, can also give them in an extraordinary manner.  Holy Scripture provides us with numerous examples of this.  Thus, Saint Dismas, the good thief, received the grace  of regeneration without any sacrament, and this with such efficacy that Our Lord said to him, "This very day you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke XXIII:43).


    The Good Thief died before the foundation of the Catholic Church at Pentecost,


    Fine.  But you have to admit that there is no error in what Fr. Barbara has written.  Saint Dismas was saved without any sacrament.  No error there.  It might not be the most relevant example but it is not an error.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    5)
    Quote

    These examples show with a certitude which cannot be
     denied that it is possible to belong to the Soul of the Church
     without belonging to her Body, and that God can bestow His
     graces in an extraordinary manner which is independent of the
     sacraments.


    Again,
     Session 7, Canon 4 of the Sacraments in General from the Decree Concerning the Sacraments:

    If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.


    Answered above.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    6)
    Quote

    With regard to these latter and all those who deny the
     mysteries of God, it is necessary to make the following point.
     If it is possible that non-Catholics can belong to the Soul of
     the Church while in good faith knowing nothing of the divine
     Mysteries, this is absolutely impossible for those who
     blaspheme against them.


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra said:

    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

    Pius XI said:
    For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad:whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.


    On this one, you might have a point but I would not go so far as to accuse Fr. Barbara of heresy.  It is obvious that he is attempting to explain the teaching according to approved sources.  If there is a little imprecision, it doesn't imply that he is denying the teaching of the Church.  And I assure you that the CMRI doesn't intend to imply that one can be saved without supernatural faith.  In fact, Fr. Barbara writes elsewhere in the article, "It is requisite that the intention by which one is ordered to the Church should be informed by perfect charity; and no explicit intention can produce its effect unless the man have supernatural faith."

    Quote from: Cantarella
    7)
    Quote

    INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

    This is the error in which those who without any fault on
     their part find themselves.  It presumes good faith.  It can be
     met with among those to whom the true religion has never been
     presented, and among those to whom it has been presented and to
     whom, despite this, it does not appear to be the truth.  Such
     is to be found in parts of the world which are completely
     adherent to the schismatic churches or some other cult, such as
     Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, etc.  This ignorance excuses
     those involved of all culpability.


    The Invincibly Ignorant is damned at least for the guilt of Original Sin. They are justly deprived of the only means of salvation, which is membership in the Holy Catholic Church (visibly, explicitly,....). They have neither innocence nor excuse in this matter. Their ignorance of the Divine Faith is a punishment for the original sin. It is the will of God, and it suffices for damnation.

    The Roman Catholic Church infallibly defined at the ecuмenical councils of Lyons and Florence, that the guilt of original sin suffices for damnation in hell.


    The term invincible ignorance can be found in Ott, Van Noort, Pius IX and Pius XI among other Church approved sources.  I believe Fr. Barbara is again in line with the Church's teaching.  Nowhere does he deny that those who die with the stain of original sin are damned.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    8.


    I'm skipping this one because I don't see where you have pointed out any error on Fr. Barbara's part.  It looks to me like you are just trying to justify the Feeneyite position by saying that God will make sure that everyone whom he desires to be saved will receive Baptism of Water.

    Quote from: Cantarella
    9.
    Quote

    It is also to HIS Church that Jesus confided the seven
     sacraments; non-Catholics are deprived of this, and this
     deprivation can only make their perseverance in the path of
     salvation more precarious.


    Makes salvation impossible, given that no one can enter Heaven with Original Sin which is remitted only though the Sacrament of Baptism.


    You are dissenting from the Ordinary Universal Magisterium of the Church on this point.  As I have already pointed out above, there are many Church-approved sources which point out that Original Sin can be remitted without Baptism of Water in some extraordinary circuмstances.  Fr. Barbara is simply following Church-approved sources.  It is you who are dissenting against Church-approved sources.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #226 on: December 14, 2014, 03:54:29 AM »
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  • The problem with sedevacantists is that they are under the impression that every single book or theologian which was ever "approved" before Vatican II is free from error, protected by infallibility. (this is part of the general sede belief that everything before Vatican II was impeccable but all collapsed overnight after 1967). This is clearly not so. There were liberal doctrinal errors rampant in the preceding decades before Vatican II Council.

    In fact, it was because of these errors (mainly in regards to salvation outside the Church) that were already vastly impregnated in the Church hierarchy that even the "traditionalists" bishops succuмbed so easily to the ecuмenical liberal reforms of Vatican II. Truth is that almost every theology manual produced in the decades leading up to Vatican II was erroneous on the topic of salvation. Even ultra modernist Rahner himself agrees that the stage was already set for Modernism to triumph in Vatican II.

    Quote from: Rahner

    “This optimism concerning salvation [of non-Catholics] appears to me one of the most noteworthy results of the Second Vatican Council. For when we consider the officially received theology concerning all these questions, which was more or less traditional right down to the Second Vatican Council, we can only wonder how few controversies arose during the Council with regard to these assertions of optimism concerning salvation, and wonder too at how little opposition the conservative wing of the Council brought to bear on this point, how all this took place without any setting of the stage or any great stir even though this doctrine marked a far more decisive phase in the development of the Church’s conscious awareness of her faith than, for instance, the doctrine of collegiality in the Church, the relationship between Scripture and tradition, the acceptance of the new exegesis, etc.” (1)


    It follows that just because Van Voort happened to be one of those approved "theologians" before Vatican II does not make his works infallible. As a matter of fact, there are several doctrinal errors in his position: basically he concludes that even pagans that do not believe in Christ could be saved via Baptism of Desire, which denies the entire dogmas of salvation / justification. This paves the way to ultra modernist Rahner's theology of the "Anonymous Christian" most Catholics (and surprisingly traditionalists!)believe today. No matter what these modernists say though, if Baptism of Desire is not a dogma, much less so is salvific "Invincible Ignorance".

    Another point about what CM wrote is that CMRI as well as other sedevacantists wrongly focus on the necessary "Supernatural Faith" and "Perfect Charity" for the non-Catholic to be saved. The problem is that the only real supernatural Faith there is, is the Catholic Faith and there can be no "Perfect Charity" for the one that is not converted . As St. Bellarmine says that "only perfect conversion can be called baptism of the Spirit, and this includes true contrition and charity". It follows that the good willed Hindu cannot have sanctifying grace nor be a temple of the Holy Ghost nor be a heir of Heaven because the Catholic Faith is necessary for all justification, as well as the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #227 on: December 14, 2014, 05:24:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Given that the rest of the article explains how there is no salvation outside the Church, I think the title can be excused.


     :roll-laugh1:

    That heretical article does absolutely NOTHING of the sort.  It spends its ENTIRE time talking about how non-Catholics and those outside the Church can be saved.

    No, a heretical title like that can NEVER be excused; it denies Catholic dogma word for word.  It's horrifically scandalous, and I'd be surprised if Father Barbara doesn't still have years and years of Purgatory left for promoting such a blasphemy.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #228 on: December 14, 2014, 10:44:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Given that the rest of the article explains how there is no salvation outside the Church, I think the title can be excused.


     :roll-laugh1:

    That heretical article does absolutely NOTHING of the sort.  It spends its ENTIRE time talking about how non-Catholics and those outside the Church can be saved.

    No, a heretical title like that can NEVER be excused; it denies Catholic dogma word for word.  It's horrifically scandalous, and I'd be surprised if Father Barbara doesn't still have years and years of Purgatory left for promoting such a blasphemy.


    I found this in The Catechism Explained, by Rev. Francis Spirago, Edited by Richard F. Clarke, SJ, Nihil Obstat: Arthur J. Scanlan, STD, Imprimatur: Patrick J. Hayes, DD, 1921.  The original edition was printed in 1899, pp. 246-247 of the TAN edition:

    Quote
    Whoever through his own fault remains outside the Church will not be saved ...  If, however, a man, through no fault of his own, remains outside the Church, he may be saved if he lead a God-fearing life; for such a one is to all intents and purposes a member of the Catholic Church.  ... They do not belong to the body of the Church, that is, they are not externally in union with the Church, but they are of the soul of the Church.  ... Thus the Catholic Church has members both visible and invisible.


    So Lad, are we supposed to believe that the ordinary universal magisterium fell into heresy?  When did it fall?  Why did no one complain until Fakhri Malouf's article in the September 1947 issue of From the Housetops?  Fr. Spirago's book was written in 1899.  Am I supposed to believe that the problem went unnoticed for 48 years?  Not a single bishop nor priest noticed?  Pope St. Pius X didn't notice?  Lad, your problem isn't with Fr. Barbara.  It is with the magisterium of the Catholic Church.  Fr. Barbara is teaching exactly what Church-approved catechisms and theology manuals were teaching for at least 63 years before the Second Vatican Council was convened.  How do you explain that?  Fr. Barbara isn't doing any time in purgatory for teaching exactly the same teaching which the Church had previously approved.  On the other hand, I am not too confident about your situation.  You are dissenting against the Church's magisterium.

    I have to conclude that those of you accusing the CMRI of heresy and/or schism based on this article are guilty of an unjust calumny.  The CMRI is teaching exactly the same doctrine which the Church had previously approved prior to V2.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #229 on: December 14, 2014, 10:50:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    The problem with sedevacantists is that they are under the impression that every single book or theologian which was ever "approved" before Vatican II is free from error, protected by infallibility. (this is part of the general sede belief that everything before Vatican II was impeccable but all collapsed overnight after 1967). This is clearly not so. There were liberal doctrinal errors rampant in the preceding decades before Vatican II Council.


    Essentially you are denying the infallibility/indefectibility of the ordinary universal magisterium.  That itself is a heresy.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #230 on: December 14, 2014, 11:39:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Quote from: Cantarella
    The problem with sedevacantists is that they are under the impression that every single book or theologian which was ever "approved" before Vatican II is free from error, protected by infallibility. (this is part of the general sede belief that everything before Vatican II was impeccable but all collapsed overnight after 1967). This is clearly not so. There were liberal doctrinal errors rampant in the preceding decades before Vatican II Council.


    Essentially you are denying the infallibility/indefectibility of the ordinary universal magisterium.  That itself is a heresy.


    No, Clemens Maria, just as Nado (and sedes in general), has a very poor understanding of what the Infallibility of the Church actually is. (and Indefectibility has nothing to do what we are discussing here). Not every single approved docuмent, book, or theologian is necessarily protected by infallibility. That is making of infallibility an unrealistic and romanticized caricature. No wonder why they do not understand what has happened with the Church & the heresy of Modernism.

    Quote

    The Ordinary Magisterium includes the potentially fallible teachings of the pope and ecuмenical Councils (i.e., not given ex cathedra) and, more commonly, of individual Bishops or groups of Bishops as taken separately from the whole College. Such teachings are fallible and could possibly contain errors; they are subject to revisions or even, rarely, revocation. In the case of the teachings of individual bishops to their diocese, there can of course even be disagreement among the individual bishops on such issues.
     
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #231 on: December 15, 2014, 04:34:11 AM »
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  • THE SALVATION OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is impossible because THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    "There is only one universal Church, outside of which
    absolutely no one can be saved."  Gregory XVI gave enunciation
    to this dogma which is "one of the most important and most
    clearly enunciated" teachings of our religion. . . . . .

    . . . . .In the face of this, must one believe that everyone,
    without exception, who does not OFFICIALLY belong to the Church
    by means of the reception of Baptism and the  profession
    of the Catholic faith, is damned?  Yes, "in the face of this", that is we must believe.

    Reply: But we must understand dogma the way the Church herself understands it.

    Answer: Vatican 1 infallibly decreed that the Church herself understands dogma as dogma has been declared.

    Vatican 1 decreed:
    Quote
    "Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."


    If one does not understand what the thrice defined dogma EENS means, then is it possible that they also do not understand what the above decree means?

    I do not know - let's ask: Nado, 2Vermont, Mabel, Myrna, Clemens Maria, anyone else - do you understand that the decree from V1 means that the Church understands dogma as declared and that dogma is to be understood as declared?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #232 on: December 15, 2014, 10:28:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Essentially you are denying the infallibility/indefectibility of the ordinary universal magisterium.  That itself is a heresy.


    No, Clemens Maria, just as Nado (and sedes in general), has a very poor understanding of what the Infallibility of the Church actually is. (and Indefectibility has nothing to do what we are discussing here). Not every single approved docuмent, book, or theologian is necessarily protected by infallibility. That is making of infallibility an unrealistic and romanticized caricature. No wonder why they do not understand what has happened with the Church & the heresy of Modernism.


    This isn't a CMRI or sedvacantist issue.  The SSPX has also published a condemnation of the Feeneyite understanding of EENS (cf. Fr. Laisney's Is Feeneyism Catholic?).  Feeneyism is only a very small but vocal percentage of the traditional Catholic milieu.  Not even all of the Catholics who go to Mass in Still River are Feeneyites.  The traditional priest (Fr. Carlton) who offered Mass during the week at Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel for years was opposed to the Feeneyite doctrine.  In Still River they could not find one Feeneyite priest to offer Mass.  Fr. hαɾɾιson who was speaking at The NH Benedict Center conferences in the 2000s was opposed to the Feeneyite doctrine.  Trying to cast this as a sedevacantist issue is intellectually dishonest.  The vast majority of traditional Catholics think that Feeneyism is a heresy to be avoided.

    Can you give any references to Church-approved publications which support your contention that Spirago, Van Noort, Ott, Fenton, Bainvel, among others are guilty of spreading heresy?

    Ironically, Feeneyites need the Conciliar Church in order to provide cover for their un-Catholic doctrine.  Without the Conciliar Church, they would be forced to admit that Fr. Feeney and his doctrine remains condemned by Suprema Haec Sacra (1949).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #233 on: December 15, 2014, 11:21:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nado
    You just undermine the divinity and holiness of the Church and Her magisterium.


    No, Nado, it is you who undermine the Magisterium and the Holiness of the Church by making it into a bizarre caricature of itself.

    With regard to EENS, either the Majority Opinion is wrong or else the Minority Opinion is wrong.  Yet the Church "tolerated" the Majority Opinion for about 1600 years.  Your argument is that the Minority Opinion cannot be an error because the Church tolerated it since it first cropped up in the 1600s.  But if the Minority Opinion is right (i.e. cannot be wrong), then the Majority Opinion is wrong.  But how could the Church have tolerated the erroneous Majority Opinion for so long then?

    There have been many cases in which the Church has failed to step in to resolve contrary opinions (cf. the famous case between the Thomists and the Molinists).  Both camps accused the other of heresy and error, and if one position was right, then the other was wrong.  Yet the Church tolerated both, i.e. the Church tolerate an erroneous opinion.

    Right until the 1950s, the majority of theologians considered the minority opinion to be erroneous.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #234 on: December 15, 2014, 11:32:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    ... [dishonest babble] ...


    As with all the BoDers (with one single exception here on CI), you simply use Baptism of Desire as a weapon to reject EENS and to promote Pelagianism and to undermine Trent's dogmatic teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  In point of fact, Father Feeney's problem was with those who held the so-called "Minority Opinion" and then leveraged that into the aforementioned heresies.  And, on this point, according to Monsignor Fenton, the MAJORITY of Catholic theologians still considered that position to be in error, in support of Father Feeney.  Father Feeney would have had no problem with the position held by someone like Nishant.

    It's only the dishonest bad-willed trads like yourself who try to make BoD the issue.  Why?  Because you can find some Church Doctors who hold the opinion.  But you fail to mention that these same Church Doctors held the MAJORITY opinion and would have condemned the heretical ramblings of Father Barbara for what they were.  St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine would not have recognized Father Barbara's bad-willed screed as even remotely Catholic.  Monsignor Fenton himself would have absolutely shredded Father Barbara's nonsense.  In fact, he did explicitly address most of the false pseudo-arguments and pseudo-distinctions and distortions used by Father Barbara in that perverse and blasphemous article of his.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    « Reply #235 on: December 15, 2014, 12:02:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    ... [dishonest babble] ...


    As with all the BoDers (with one single exception here on CI), you simply use Baptism of Desire as a weapon to reject EENS and to promote Pelagianism and to undermine Trent's dogmatic teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  In point of fact, Father Feeney's problem was with those who held the so-called "Minority Opinion" and then leveraged that into the aforementioned heresies.  And, on this point, according to Monsignor Fenton, the MAJORITY of Catholic theologians still considered that position to be in error, in support of Father Feeney.  Father Feeney would have had no problem with the position held by someone like Nishant.

    It's only the dishonest bad-willed trads like yourself who try to make BoD the issue.  Why?  Because you can find some Church Doctors who hold the opinion.  But you fail to mention that these same Church Doctors held the MAJORITY opinion and would have condemned the heretical ramblings of Father Barbara for what they were.  St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine would not have recognized Father Barbara's bad-willed screed as even remotely Catholic.  Monsignor Fenton himself would have absolutely shredded Father Barbara's nonsense.  In fact, he did explicitly address most of the false pseudo-arguments and pseudo-distinctions and distortions used by Father Barbara in that perverse and blasphemous article of his.


    I base my opinion on Church-approved sources which I have already specified in the discussion above.  On what authority do you base your opinions?  Don't bother with quotes from the Fathers of the Church.  My sources have already shown how their doctrine is compatible with the Fathers and their teaching is approved by the Church as recently as the 1950s.  Please site a Church-approved source for your opinion that Barbara, Spirago, Fenton, Bainvel, Ott, The Holy Office (Ottaviani?), Van Noort among others are all teaching heresy.

    You don't have those sources, do you?  You only have opinions from Feeneyite sources who don't have Church approval, don't have imprimaturs nor nihil obstats and don't have the support of a single Catholic bishop anywhere in the world today nor for centuries in the past.  You only have some false private interpretations that have only been around since the late 1940s.


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #236 on: December 15, 2014, 01:10:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria


    This isn't a CMRI or sedvacantist issue.  The SSPX has also published a condemnation of the Feeneyite understanding of EENS (cf. Fr. Laisney's Is Feeneyism Catholic?). ....Trying to cast this as a sedevacantist issue is intellectually dishonest.  The vast majority of traditional Catholics think that Feeneyism is a heresy to be avoided.



    This is true but that does not mean that these "traditionalists" are right (I am not SSPX by the way). That is why they seem to be stuck in useless nostalgic fiftieism. They all point out the "errors' of Vatican II but can't see the forest for the trees. The crisis is not about the liturgy but the dogma. The Novus Ordo Mass is only a symptom of the real illness. This people have no idea what they are really fighting against. They are like the defeated soldier who does not even know who enemy he fought.

    ALL the problematic doctrine of Vatican II reduces ultimately to the erosion of a single dogma, that of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (EENS). If one has a loose interpretation of EENS, then the theology of Vatican II flows logically from it. If the criteria for salvation is now subjective, then people unquestionably have a God-given right to follow their consciences and save their souls, which is the foundation for Religious Liberty. The belief that the Holy Ghost can actually dwell in non-Catholics and that all can be saved in and out the Church is the foundation of false ecuмenism and inter-Faith movements where Christ is just another god among the others. That non - Catholics can be part of the Church is what sets up the entire new Vatican II "Anonymous Christian" ecclesiology.

    ALB himself famously stated that people can be saved IN their false religions but not BY them. But according to the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Church, all souls must be explicitly converted to Catholicism via water baptism. Ironically, the SSPX accepts this loose definition of EENS but Sedevacantists are even much more rigorous on the issue. CMRI openly PROMOTES the salvation for non-Catholics as the discussed docuмent proves.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #237 on: December 15, 2014, 05:58:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    I base my opinion on Church-approved sources which I have already specified in the discussion above.  On what authority do you base your opinions?  Don't bother with quotes from the Fathers of the Church.  My sources have already shown how their doctrine is compatible with the Fathers and their teaching is approved by the Church as recently as the 1950s.  Please site a Church-approved source for your opinion that Barbara, Spirago, Fenton, Bainvel, Ott, The Holy Office (Ottaviani?), Van Noort among others are all teaching heresy.


    No, you base your opinion on your bad-willed refusal to accept the dogma EENS.  Correct, many authorities believed in Baptism of Desire.  What's incorrect is your attempting to extrapolate from Baptism of Desire the salvation of non-Catholics.  You are a Pelagian, a denier of EENS, and refuse to accept also the dogmatic teaching of Trent regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  You deliberately conflate your heresies with BoD and try to wrap up the excrement in a brown paper bag, mark the bag "BoD", and try to convince everyone that what's inside is really something that St. Thomas put in there.  False.

    If you want to understand the distinction, look up my thread on Catholic vs. Heretical Baptism of Desire.  If you want to understand a Catholic view of BoD, ask Nishant; he's very articulate about a BoD that's 1) consisent with the mind of St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, et al., 2) is not Pelagian, 3) does not reject the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, and 4) does not gut EENS into a meaningless tautological formula.  But you don't care.  Why?  Because you're not sincerely seeking the truth.  You are of bad will.  You find EENS unpalatable.  You have therefore exploited the notion of BoD and twisted it to suit your purposes.  Nishant, who is NOT a Feeneyite by any stretch of the imagination, has writtten several very thoughtful and charitable posts to address this issue.  Not one of you bad-willed obstinate EENS-deniers have ever bothered with a response.  You just keep frothing at the mouth about "Feeneyism".  Nishant's only mistake is to take a tone which implies that you might be of good will and might listen to reason.  In point of fact, most of you are obstinate in your heresies.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #238 on: December 15, 2014, 06:00:47 PM »
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  • Why exactly do you list Fenton and Barbara in the same list?  Fenton has addressed most of Barbara's false arguments, errors, and heresies -- and would have shredded Barbara.

    That's another joke about BoD.  For every BoD proponent you get a completely different understanding of what it and what it is not; the only thing you all have in common is your insistence that non-Catholics can be saved.

    So here's the true definition of BoD:  the principle that those outside the Church can be saved somehow.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Is the CMRI schismatic?
    « Reply #239 on: December 16, 2014, 11:29:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    I base my opinion on Church-approved sources which I have already specified in the discussion above.  On what authority do you base your opinions?  Don't bother with quotes from the Fathers of the Church.  My sources have already shown how their doctrine is compatible with the Fathers and their teaching is approved by the Church as recently as the 1950s.  Please site a Church-approved source for your opinion that Barbara, Spirago, Fenton, Bainvel, Ott, The Holy Office (Ottaviani?), Van Noort among others are all teaching heresy.


    No, you base your opinion on your bad-willed refusal to accept the dogma EENS.  Correct, many authorities believed in Baptism of Desire.  What's incorrect is your attempting to extrapolate from Baptism of Desire the salvation of non-Catholics.  You are a Pelagian, a denier of EENS, and refuse to accept also the dogmatic teaching of Trent regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  You deliberately conflate your heresies with BoD and try to wrap up the excrement in a brown paper bag, mark the bag "BoD", and try to convince everyone that what's inside is really something that St. Thomas put in there.  False.

    If you want to understand the distinction, look up my thread on Catholic vs. Heretical Baptism of Desire.  If you want to understand a Catholic view of BoD, ask Nishant; he's very articulate about a BoD that's 1) consisent with the mind of St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, et al., 2) is not Pelagian, 3) does not reject the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, and 4) does not gut EENS into a meaningless tautological formula.  But you don't care.  Why?  Because you're not sincerely seeking the truth.  You are of bad will.  You find EENS unpalatable.  You have therefore exploited the notion of BoD and twisted it to suit your purposes.  Nishant, who is NOT a Feeneyite by any stretch of the imagination, has writtten several very thoughtful and charitable posts to address this issue.  Not one of you bad-willed obstinate EENS-deniers have ever bothered with a response.  You just keep frothing at the mouth about "Feeneyism".  Nishant's only mistake is to take a tone which implies that you might be of good will and might listen to reason.  In point of fact, most of you are obstinate in your heresies.


    I accept the dogma of EENS.  I didn't extrapolate.  I quoted approved Catholic sources.  I didn't add anything nor subtract anything.  I am not a theologian.  I accept the approved teaching of the Catholic Church.  Fr. Feeney was excommunicated.  The Holy Office condemned his doctrine.  You accuse Fr. Barbara of heresy (not just heresy but bad-willed heresy, actually you accused me of bad will but I do not teach anything, I am just defending Fr. Barbara's and the CMRI's orthodoxy so I assume that you are accusing Fr. Barbara of bad will despite the fact that he is not attempting to deny any of the Church's teaching).  I quoted multiple Catholic sources for the "soul of the Church" terminology which Cantarella found objectionable.  I also pointed out that Fr. Barbara teaches that supernatural faith is necessary for salvation which was another of Cantarella's objections (i.e. that Fr. Barbara was denying the necessity of faith).  You didn't offer any specific criticisms of Fr. Barbara's article so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to Pelagianism or denying EENS.  No one that I quoted claimed that you could achieve salvation without grace.  None have denied EENS.  All the sources I quoted affirm EENS while at the same time allowing for BOD.  I don't find EENS unpalatable.  I believe the doctrine of EENS.  I haven't seen Nishant's posts.  I am only defending Fr. Barbara and the CMRI because I know that they have no desire to teach anything other than what the Church has always taught.  All of my sources, including Fr. Barbara teach that all those who have Catholic Faith and have not had the opportunity through no fault of their own to receive water baptism can be saved if they have perfect contrition for there sins.  If you think Fr. Barbara has deviated from those approved Catholic sources then in justice you should be specific about where you think he has gone wrong.

    I note too that Fr. Bainvel disagreed with the "soul of the Church" terminology but he did not therefore characterize it as a heresy much less accuse people of bad will.  He just said it didn't fit the data very well.  He understood it as Catholic theologians struggling to find the best way to explain the conflict between EENS and BOD.  But one thing that all truly Catholic theologians agree on is that you cannot resolve this conflict by throwing out BOD.