Author Topic: Is the CMRI schismatic? (Read 40746 times)

Elizabeth · « **on:** November 17, 2014, 04:33:51 PM »

The SSPV are the prime support for claims against the CMRI. They also claim the laypeople of CMRI are not Catholic.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2014, 05:27:51 PM »

They use the name of one Schuckardt because they can't find any legitimate reason, since CMRI only teaches the One True Faith, everything in the deposit of Faith, and their Bishop relies on Encyclicals and writings of True past popes to instruct anyone who has ears to hear, not opinions.

They can't find anything, and hate the fact that their Bishop will not compromise, will not please man just for the sake of financial support from those who are not willing to walk the walk and talk the talk.

Their main support is a the name of Shuckardt.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2014, 06:54:30 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Elizabeth
The SSPV are the prime support for claims against the CMRI. They also claim the laypeople of CMRI are not Catholic.

When I said "prime support" I am referring to the reason for why one would say the association of Schuckardt has made them schismatic.

Read Mario Derksen's Open Letter for free online and it will explain much better than I could.

Cantarella · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2014, 07:20:07 PM »

Cantarella · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2014, 07:22:37 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

They use the name of one Schuckardt because they can't find any legitimate reason, since CMRI only teaches the One True Faith, everything in the deposit of Faith, and their Bishop relies on Encyclicals and writings of True past popes to instruct anyone who has ears to hear, not opinions.

They can't find anything, and hate the fact that their Bishop will not compromise, will not please man just for the sake of financial support from those who are not willing to walk the walk and talk the talk.

Their main support is a the name of Shuckardt.

I do not think I even mentioned the name Schuckardt when explaining the reasons of why the CMRI is schismatic. The main reason why CMRI is schismatic is because it refuses submission and juridical union to the Roman Pontiff.

Quote

Canon 751 says: "Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

Bishops in schism, heresy, or apostasy such as Bs. Piravunas cannot pass on Apostolic Succession, (one of the marks of the True Church); although it is possible for some of them to pass on valid orders.

The CMRI cleric has no ordinary jurisdiction because: "This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter." Epikeia is not an act of jurisdiction, and epikeia cannot be used to obtain jurisdiction. "Even if valid orders exist, where jurisdiction is lacking there is no real Apostolic Succession."

MyrnaM · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2014, 07:41:58 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

The CMRI cleric has no ordinary jurisdiction because: "This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter." Epikeia is not an act of jurisdiction, and epikeia cannot be used to obtain jurisdiction. "Even if valid orders exist, where jurisdiction is lacking there is no real Apostolic Succession."

If that's the case what are you doing giving allegiance to Francis? Since when does a Freemason, Modernist flow through the Successor of St. Peter? Please explain, I want to learn.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2014, 11:41:01 PM »

Catholic means universal, therefore in this Crisis of the (universal) Church, a valid clergy has jurisdiction everywhere, despite not being granted regular faculties by a (heretical / apostate) Bishop. The same goes for a traditional valid Bishop. He has jurisdiction everywhere despite not being granted faculties by (heretic / apostate) Francis. As long as a clergy is validly ordained and he's in the true Catholic Faith, then his apostolate is in effect anywhere, and at any time, during this Crisis.

andysloan · « **Reply #7 on:** November 18, 2014, 12:23:53 AM »

Romans 11:16

"For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."

Francis Schuckardt bio:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schuckardt

2 Peter 2:1

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church --- however much he believes that he is living praiseworthily --- will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ."
St. Augustine

"So that you may understand that the Church has received the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, hear what the Lord says ... to all His Apostles: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," and then immediately following: "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23). These words relate to the keys, of which it had been said: "Whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in Heaven" (Matthew 16: 19) ...And outside the Church, nothing is loosed ... The charity of the Church which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost forgives the sins of those who are partakers of it. Of those who are not partakers, it retains. The grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to those to whom the faith belongs. He who does not believe remains unhealed."
St. Augustine [/b]

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2014, 11:22:48 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: MyrnaM

They use the name of one Schuckardt because they can't find any legitimate reason, since CMRI only teaches the One True Faith, everything in the deposit of Faith, and their Bishop relies on Encyclicals and writings of True past popes to instruct anyone who has ears to hear, not opinions.

They can't find anything, and hate the fact that their Bishop will not compromise, will not please man just for the sake of financial support from those who are not willing to walk the walk and talk the talk.

Their main support is a the name of Shuckardt.

I do not think I even mentioned the name Schuckardt when explaining the reasons of why the CMRI is schismatic. The main reason why CMRI is schismatic is because it refuses submission and juridical union to the Roman Pontiff.

Quote

Canon 751 says: "Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

Bishops in schism, heresy, or apostasy such as Bs. Piravunas cannot pass on Apostolic Succession, (one of the marks of the True Church); although it is possible for some of them to pass on valid orders.

The CMRI cleric has no ordinary jurisdiction because: "This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter." Epikeia is not an act of jurisdiction, and epikeia cannot be used to obtain jurisdiction. "Even if valid orders exist, where jurisdiction is lacking there is no real Apostolic Succession."

The OP specifically says what this thread is NOT about. Did you read it? You just responded here precisely on the point that is NOT what this thread is about - their sedevacantism. You really need to read what you are replying to.

In the case of CMRI these two cannot be separated given that CMRI is schismatic precisely on account of sedevacantism or withdrawal from the Roman Pontiff, which is a real threath to the eclessiastical unity of the Church. The question was about the reason of CMRI schism, and the answer is sedevacantism.

2Vermont · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2014, 03:46:40 PM »

As if the Novus Ordo Church under "Pope" Francis is a bastion of unity.

:roll-laugh1:

Stubborn · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2014, 06:19:14 AM »

Quote from: Nado

When I said "prime support" I am referring to the reason for why one would say the association of Schuckardt has made them schismatic.

What do you mean by "association"?

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2014, 06:33:00 AM »

The OP should have outlined all reasons for schism, including sedevacantism, and after listing them all he should have then stated this the wanted us to ignore sedevacantism.

I think one of the other reasons for schism is refusing communion with fellow Catholics. To my knowledge, CMRI does not do that.

If refusing submission to the Holy Father is one of the reasons (it is) then both sides have to be reviewed in light of the facts of the time period we are suffering through. For the sake of this discussion, everyone should refrain from the sedevacantism subset of schism.

Does CMRI possess valid orders? Has the novus ordo ever rendered a judgement or even opinion on that? Until we are know otherwise, the answer is yes.

So if there are only three components of schism, and we put aside the refusal to submit to the holy Father, then we can't conclude that the CMRI is schismatic.

Stubborn · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2014, 08:37:22 AM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

The OP should have outlined all reasons for schism, including sedevacantism, and after listing them all he should have then stated this the wanted us to ignore sedevacantism.

I think one of the other reasons for schism is refusing communion with fellow Catholics. To my knowledge, CMRI does not do that.

If refusing submission to the Holy Father is one of the reasons (it is) then both sides have to be reviewed in light of the facts of the time period we are suffering through. For the sake of this discussion, everyone should refrain from the sedevacantism subset of schism.

Does CMRI possess valid orders? Has the novus ordo ever rendered a judgement or even opinion on that? Until we are know otherwise, the answer is yes.

So if there are only three components of schism, and we put aside the refusal to submit to the holy Father, then we can't conclude that the CMRI is schismatic.

Having valid Holy Orders does not mean they are not is schism.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2014, 09:28:40 AM »

:read-paper: Have you read Mario's paper, Nado? It lays aside the SV Theory of I recall. He even has a summary for quick study.

Geremia · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2014, 09:36:26 AM »

Unless the Church has declared them schismatic, you can still receive their sacraments.

Addressing the question "Whether it is permissible to receive communion from heretical, excommunicate, [schismatic,] or sinful priests, and to hear mass said by them?," St. Thomas writes:

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas

Consequently, until the Church's sentence is pronounced, it is lawful to receive Communion at their hands, and to hear their mass.
[Et ideo, usque ad sententiam Ecclesiae, licet ab eis communionem accipere et eorum Missam audire.]