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Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Yes
22 (71%)
No
0 (0%)
Not Sure
4 (12.9%)
Other
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: September 29, 2022, 04:57:29 PM

Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?  (Read 2914 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2022, 06:26:19 PM »
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  • Yeah, like picking and choosing which doctrines in the Ordinary Magisterium to follow. Like you do.

    A positive doubt about the validity of one's orders is not a doctrine. Therefore, avoiding those with doubtful orders is prudence, not generation of doctrine. Plus, it's one that would extend to the SSPX and Resistance as well, otherwise why would they conditionally ordain former NO "priests"?
    Right, but Catholics are expected to identify other legitimate Catholics. And it is a doctrine that it is necessary that one is baptized and profess the true Faith in order to be a Catholic. Francis is certainly baptized, but he does not profess the true Faith.

    We do not decide as to the legitimacy of the Pope. That is not Catholic. If it were, there would be doctrine that addresses it. But there isn't any. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #76 on: September 22, 2022, 06:29:56 PM »
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  • We do not decide as to the legitimacy of the Pope. That is not Catholic. If it were, there would be doctrine that addresses it. But there isn't any.
    Meg, you're presupposing that he is the Pope to begin with. You'd have a point if there were no doubts about that; but there are, which is why my position exists.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #77 on: September 22, 2022, 06:31:20 PM »
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  • Meg, you're presupposing that he is the Pope to begin with. You'd have a point if there were no doubts about that; but there are, which is why my position exists.

    I have a point because there is no church teaching that allows for laymen deciding the legitimacy of a pope. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #78 on: September 22, 2022, 06:34:51 PM »
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  • I have a point because there is no church teaching that allows for laymen deciding the legitimacy of a pope.
    Catholic principles allow for it. See my previous post:

    Right, but Catholics are expected to identify other legitimate Catholics. And it is a doctrine that it is necessary that one is baptized and profess the true Faith in order to be a Catholic. Francis is certainly baptized, but he does not profess the true Faith.

    That being said, Catholics also do not have the right to pick and choose what doctrines of the Ordinary Magisterium to follow either.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #79 on: September 22, 2022, 06:37:55 PM »
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  • Catholic principles allow for it. See my previous post:

    That being said, Catholics also do not have the right to pick and choose what doctrines of the Ordinary Magisterium to follow either.

    Well then, we are at an impasse. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #80 on: September 22, 2022, 06:52:28 PM »
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  • "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #81 on: September 22, 2022, 07:18:25 PM »
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  • This post is not a 'pick on Meg' post but just a question, and is for anyone really as I used to be R'n'R -

    Why are SSPXers attending illegal chapels founded by an Archbishop who is still officially excommunicated?  Have you determined through your own judgment that the popes have been teaching you error?  Or that an Ecuмenical Council has promulgated error?  Or do SSPXers just like the Gregorian Chant and the Latin Mass performed in illegal chapels?


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #82 on: September 23, 2022, 05:16:25 AM »
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  • This post is not a 'pick on Meg' post but just a question, and is for anyone really as I used to be R'n'R -

    Why are SSPXers attending illegal chapels founded by an Archbishop who is still officially excommunicated?  Have you determined through your own judgment that the popes have been teaching you error?  Or that an Ecuмenical Council has promulgated error?  Or do SSPXers just like the Gregorian Chant and the Latin Mass performed in illegal chapels?
    As one who has no affiliation, I think it rather a question of making the best of what is available to a person. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #83 on: September 23, 2022, 05:50:35 AM »
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  • Satis Cognitum #8
    "It was consequently provided by God that the Magisterium instituted by Jesus Christ should not end with the life of the Apostles, but that it should be perpetuated. We see it in truth propagated, and, ‘as it were, delivered from hand to hand. For the Apostles consecrated bishops, and each one appointed those who were to succeed them immediately “in the ministry of the word.”

    Nay more: they likewise required their successors to choose fitting men, to endow them with like authority, and to confide to them the office and mission of teaching."

    This particular passage clearly shows that the Magisterium is most definitely a living, teaching episcopal body.  The authority to TEACH is perpetuated in the successors of the Apostles.  The deposit of faith is physically delivered, by the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium, by ordinary and extraordinary means, "from hand to hand."    
    "We see it in truth propagated, and, ‘as it were, delivered from hand to hand." The words "it" and "truth propagated" is the magisterium, teachings immune from error handed down, this truth does not end with the life of the Apostles. This is the magisterium.

    "For the Apostles consecrated bishops, and each one appointed those who were to succeed them immediately “in the ministry of the word.”

    Nay more: they likewise required their successors to choose fitting men, to endow them with like authority, and to confide to them the office and mission of teaching."


    Yes of course the Apostles have successors whose mission is teaching, but being human they are not immune from error, they are not truth propagated handed down.


    Quote
    He continues:

    Satis Cognitum #9
    "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium."

    Proposed
    verb
    past tense: proposed; past participle: proposed
    1. put forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others.

    A simple web definition shows that the Magisterium ACTS by PROPOSING doctrine.  

    The Magisterium is literally the teaching authority commissioned by Christ Himself to go forth and teach all nations. 

    The "authoritative magisterium" is "the Church." "The Church" is the teaching authority. "...this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - PPIX Tuas Libenter

    Pope Leo XIII is saying that the Fathers are condemning as alien to the Church anyone who does not believe every single human being has a Guardian Angel for example. Sorry for the poor example, but this belief is contrary to the doctrine of Guardian Angels hence is condemned by the Fathers. THAT is what he is saying. Feel free to insert any doctrine at all, it's all I have in mind at this moment, only had a few sips of coffee so far.



    Quote
    Satis Cognitum #10
    "But as this heavenly doctrine was never left to the arbitrary judgment of private individuals, but, in the beginning delivered by Jesus Christ, was afterwards committed by Him exclusively to the Magisterium already named, so the power of performing and administering the divine mysteries, together with the authority of ruling and governing, was not bestowed by God on all Christians indiscriminately, but on certain chosen persons.

    For to the Apostles and their legitimate successors alone these words have reference: “Going into the whole world preach the Gospel.” “Baptizing them.” “Do this in commemoration of Me.” “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them.” And in like manner He ordered the Apostles only and those who should lawfully succeed them to feed – that is to govern with authority – alll Christian souls."

    Again, given the context of the term Magisterium, used by Pope Leo XIII, I believe it clearly shows a physical office commissioned by Christ.  The Magisterium was established by Christ to guard and protect the whole of Catholic Doctrine - which is immune from all error. 
    You are taking this one a bit out of context because he explains what is meant by "This heavenly doctrine" in the previous paragraph: "It is then undoubtedly the office of the church to guard Christian doctrine and to propagate it in its integrity and purity...." Again, it is "The Church" or "The office of The Church" who is the authority and has "the authority of ruling and governing."

    "The Magisterium already named"  is named in the previous paragraph as "The Church." 

    Alas it looks like this thread has been degraded into yet another dose of sede vs R&R scurrility. 

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #84 on: September 23, 2022, 06:04:13 AM »
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  • Basically, until the last sixty years, unless you were a religious the average Catholic knew about piety and not doctrine - say novenas, read about the saints, say your prayers, etc.  None of this has to do with Doctrine and even now it's clear that most Trads only want a Latin Mass anyway. 

    Christ is the Good Shepherd, and a pope rules with that authority.  While popes didn't factor in directly at the parish or school level, it was because they didn't have to - what they taught was Catholic.  And that made its way through the ranks (schools, penny catechisms, etc.) in just the way the Church was established to run. 
    Well, pre V2, the average Catholic did not learn their holy religion from popes and bishops, what they learned was the Catholic religion handed down to them from generation to generation whether they were 3 years old or 100, whether taught by parents, teachers, priests, books or seminaries. This is an example of the Church's living magisterium. It's living because souls still yearn to learn the truth to save their souls and the Church provides for those souls and will do so till the end of time. The term's definition has managed to be morphed into being popes and bishops, leaving a magisterium that is falsely believed to be altogether corrupt and a Church that has been, or will soon be destroyed, sadly, even by those (trads) who should know better. 
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #85 on: September 23, 2022, 06:09:42 AM »
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  • This post is not a 'pick on Meg' post but just a question, and is for anyone really as I used to be R'n'R -

    Why are SSPXers attending illegal chapels founded by an Archbishop who is still officially excommunicated?  Have you determined through your own judgment that the popes have been teaching you error?  Or that an Ecuмenical Council has promulgated error?  Or do SSPXers just like the Gregorian Chant and the Latin Mass performed in illegal chapels?
    We have no qualms between our obligation to Church authorities and our obligation to save our souls. The obligation to save our souls comes first.

    I have quoted Fr. Wathen saying: "We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, that is not questionable, that’s just a matter of observing what has been said, and we can judge that matter as easily as we can judge the pronouncements of a protestant minister. I mean, if a protestant minster says something that is contrary to the faith, it’s not crime or anything for us to say, “That’s heresy”. It does not matter who says it, if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy."


    I think the above quote suffices to explain your questions in a nutshell, and it goes well with my signature.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #86 on: September 23, 2022, 07:01:07 AM »
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  • I have a point because there is no church teaching that allows for laymen deciding the legitimacy of a pope.

    Yes, this is generally true.  But in the scenario of a heretical pope, someone has to be the first to call it out.  You don't go from zero to universal rejection of a papal claimant at the flip of a switch.  There is a progression that goes something like this:

    1) Pope manifests heresy in some way.
    2) One or more Catholics call it out.
    3) Gradually more and more Catholics come to the realization that the man is a heretic.
    4) Universal rejection of the papal claimant.

    We're at step #3 (somewhere along that path).

    But that's the case of an ordinary heretic pope.  And, as I try to point out over and over again, this isn't so much about the heresy or lack thereof of a Pope.  We're confronted with this Conciliar Church.  We find that we don't recognize it as the Catholic Church and feel oblige to sever communion with it.  So the question is whether it is possible for the Catholic Church (via the authority of a legitimate pope), to become so corrupt as to basically require Catholics to sever communion with it and to submission to the Catholic hierarchy, in order to save our souls.  At the end of the day, whether Bergoglio is a heretic or not, it really isn't our problem.  What's our problem is the Conciliar Church.

    What's at issue here is whether R&R actually undermine and destroy Catholic doctrine regarding the Magisterium and the Papacy in order to save Bergoglio, just so the can have some guy prancing around in white vestments in Rome.  If you want a guy in white vestments, you would have been better off with David Bawden.  Both of them in your eyes have the same authority, and in fact Bawden had more because his "teaching" was in conformity with Tradition.  This is the R&R ecclesiology, and it's horrible.  There's a real risk of people losing the actual Catholic faith by adhering to false R&R principles.

    So, I ask you, why don't you guys jump on board with Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  This way you can have your guy walking around in white without attributing the evils of the Conciliar Church to the authority of the Pope.  What's your aversion to it?

    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #87 on: September 23, 2022, 08:16:41 AM »
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  • Alas it looks like this thread has been degraded into yet another dose of sede vs R&R scurrility.

    I agree the Magisterium is immune from all error, there is no doubt about that, since I've provided those quotes countless times.  

    I can see where this thread is starting to veer off topic, so I won't say too much more on this.  However, I believe this confusion about the Magisterium stems from the larger problem of not recognizing the pope as our rule of faith.  Or at least failing to recognize the pope as our "proximate" rule of faith.    

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #88 on: September 23, 2022, 08:36:34 AM »
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  • What's so classic is that no Trad pays any attention whatsoever to the Vicar of Christ.  Pure comedy (if the pope is legitimate).  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #89 on: September 23, 2022, 08:54:14 AM »
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  • I agree the Magisterium is immune from all error, there is no doubt about that, since I've provided those quotes countless times. 

    I can see where this thread is starting to veer off topic, so I won't say too much more on this.  However, I believe this confusion about the Magisterium stems from the larger problem of not recognizing the pope as our rule of faith.  Or at least failing to recognize the pope as our "proximate" rule of faith.   
    The pope is the rule of faith when he is immune from error, that is, when he speaks ex cathedra. And I agree 100% it all stems from this.

    The rule of faith is truth, i.e the holy Catholic doctrines which we are bound to because without those truths, we place our faith, our trust and belief in error, we then live in error and are lost. These days are a good example of this.

    I've always wanted to ask - who is the pope's rule of faith?

    Initially, the pioneering trads had no idea that it was the pope who perpetrated all that happened within the Church 60 years ago. For a year at least, (maybe 2 or 3 hard to remember) they kept the faith while waiting for the pope to straighten things out! This shows why the truth / doctrines are the rule of faith.

    When they finally found out and accepted the fact that PPVI was the culprit, as regards keeping the faith nothing changed for them because in knowing truth, they knew right from wrong.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse