Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible? (Read 6940 times)

Sgt Rock USMC · « **Reply #60 on:** September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on September 22, 2022, 09:55:45 AM

Well, no. The Deposit of Faith is the body of doctrines which constitute the rule of faith. Those doctrines are not dormant nor hidden from us, they gotta get to us somehow, and the way they get to us is through the Magisterium i.e. "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world" as PPIX teaches in Tuas Libenter, and also V1.

I see that we differ with regards to the rule of faith. Notwithstanding, here's what I've always understood as the Magisterium:

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. The Magisterium consists of a teaching body, an episcopal body, at the head of which is the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff.

The Magisterium, the teaching body, teaches the Church in two ways:

Ordinary Means
Extraordinary Means

The Ordinary means of teaching is as you described in your post. Each bishop is charged with the teaching of his flock, and this may be delegated to his priests, nuns, etc. This ordinary way of teaching is described as follows:

Catholic Encyclopedia - Tradition and Living Magisterium
"Although the bishops, taken individually, are not infallible their teaching participates in the infallibility of the Church according as they teach in concert and in union with the episcopal body, that is according as they express not their personal ideas, but the very thought of the Church."

The Extraordinary means of teaching is done through ex cathedra proclamations by the pope, and ecuмenical councils.

I know this all seems simple, but this has always been my basic understanding of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church.

Stubborn · « **Reply #61 on:** September 22, 2022, 12:21:58 PM »

Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM

I see that we differ with regards to the rule of faith. Notwithstanding, here's what I've always understood as the Magisterium:

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. The Magisterium consists of a teaching body, an episcopal body, at the head of which is the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff.

If this were the case, then the papal quotes in reply #1 of this thread are at least erroneous and certainly not true, whether the chair is currently empty or not. Because the quotes are true, the magisterium has always been, and will forever be immune from error. Which means the magisterium cannot be a teaching body made up of the pope and episcopacy.

Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM

Catholic Encyclopedia - Tradition and Living Magisterium
"Although the bishops, taken individually, are not infallible their teaching participates in the infallibility of the Church according as they teach in concert and in union with the episcopal body, that is according as they express not their personal ideas, but the very thought of the Church."

This is actually heresy. What the CE is teaching here is the Lumen Gentium heresy. JP2 dubbed V2 as being the "Second Pentecost," which is heresy.

For us, we know that at Pentecost, at the decent of the Holy Ghost upon Our Blessed Mother and the Apostles, St. Peter and all the Apostles were each made individually infallible whenever and wherever they taught the faith. God did this in order to establish Church on earth and facilitate the beginnings of the Church throughout the entire world.

It is because each of the Apostles were individually infallible that wherever and whatever each of the Apostles taught regarding the faith, dispersed as they were throughout the world, by virtue of the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, were most certainly and could only be, each-individually-infallible, and on that account,
1) whatever they taught regarding the faith, they would have all taught the exact same thing in unison because they all taught the same divinely protected *truths*, as such,
2) no matter what they taught regarding the faith, they would have all been in agreement with each other and St. Peter - not to mention with all the future popes whenever they speak ex cathedra till the end of time.

*That's* the true infallibility of the Apostles, not their successors. That's how infallibility works, that's how infallibility worked when the Church on earth was in it's infancy. This truth is not based on a unanimity of bishops in union with the pope, it's based on the descent of the Holy Ghost upon each one of the Apostles - individually.

OTOH, the NO's Second Pentecost's idea of infallibility is built upon the idea of collegiality, that at V2 aka the Second Pentecost, that's when they made "the unanimous agreement of the totality of bishops in union with the pope" so as to pass off their modernist teachings being infallible, which as we have seen for the last 60 years, their novel doctrine of "bishops in union with the pope" bs is entirely false, on top of that is an utterly diabolical corruption of Pentecost.

Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM

The Extraordinary means of teaching is done through ex cathedra proclamations by the pope, and ecuмenical councils.

I know this all seems simple, but this has always been my basic understanding of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church.

Well, ecuмenical councils without a pope (is there such a thing?) cannot proclaim anything ex cathedra, only popes can, whether in or out of an ecuмenical council.

Sgt Rock USMC · « **Reply #62 on:** September 22, 2022, 12:57:27 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

If this were the case, then the papal quotes in reply #1 of this thread are at least erroneous and certainly not true, whether the chair is currently empty or not. Because the quotes are true, the magisterium has always been, and will forever be immune from error. Which means the magisterium cannot be a teaching body made up of the pope and episcopacy.

But your thinking is directly contrary to what Pope Leo XIII teaches:

Satis Cognitum, #9
...Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true.

Here we have a clear picture of the Magisterium, as articulated by the Roman Pontiff.

Quote from: Stubborn

This is actually heresy. What the CE is teaching here is the Lumen Gentium heresy. JP2 dubbed V2 as being the "Second Pentecost," which is heresy.

I disagree... I believe it's perfectly in line with Pope Leo XIII's teaching:

Satis Cognitum #14
...and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicarsof the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.

Quote from: Stubborn

Well, ecuмenical councils without a pope (is there such a thing?) cannot proclaim anything ex cathedra, only popes can, whether in or out of an ecuмenical council.

I don't think I disputed this.

Meg · « **Reply #63 on:** September 22, 2022, 01:56:17 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on September 22, 2022, 09:55:45 AM

I don't know where trads learn their faith from these days, but I learned my faith, not from any pope or bishop, I learned it first from my parents, then from a variety of sources including nuns, priests, catechisms and other books and teachers. Some choose to go on to higher learning institutions and or seminaries etc. But for me and probably every other Catholic whose ever lived, what I learned was handed down from them to me. The same is to be said for them, and so on all the way back to the time of the Apostles.

Well said. I learned the Catholic Faith from a priest of the SSPX, as well as older catechisms, and the old Angelqueen forum. Certainly not from any pope. Though I did learn a thing or two from Bp. Williamson and +ABL. But normally, it seems that we are supposed to learn the Faith at a local level, from family and our parish/chapel.

Before the Vll council, how many Catholics really paid that much attention to the Pope?

Stubborn · « **Reply #64 on:** September 22, 2022, 02:11:40 PM »

Quote

But your thinking is directly contrary to what Pope Leo XIII teaches:

Satis Cognitum, #9
...Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true.

Here we have a clear picture of the Magisterium, as articulated by the Roman Pontiff.

Yes, very clear. I think you are missing something. Christ did institute in the Church, "a living, authoritative and permanent magisterium," don't forget that it's immune from error.

When he says "it's teachings" should be received as His own, that's exactly what he means, "it's teachings." He does not say their teachings, he says "it's teachings."

Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 12:57:27 PM

I disagree... I believe it's perfectly in line with Pope Leo XIII's teaching:

Satis Cognitum #14
...and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicarsof the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.

Catholic Encyclopedia - Tradition and Living Magisterium

"Although the bishops, taken individually, are not infallible their teaching participates in the infallibility of the Church according as they teach in concert and in union with the episcopal body, that is according as they express not their personal ideas, but the very thought of the Church."

Pope Leo XIII is indeed teaching the truth, but he does not say anything like your CE quote. The CE quote, like LG, makes their teachings infallible so long as they're all teaching the same thing at basically the same time - this is NO teaching.

Compare SG #14 with the heresy taught in LG 25.2 which is more in line with the CE quote you posted....

Quote

LG 25.2
"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held. This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecuмenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith."

There are many trads who believe this, which if true, means that the NO is right and all trads are wrong.....not that being wrong within the NO means anything, unless you're trad.

Sgt Rock USMC · « **Reply #65 on:** September 22, 2022, 03:02:07 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Yes, very clear. I think you are missing something. Christ did institute in the Church, "a living, authoritative and permanent magisterium," don't forget that it's immune from error.

When he says "it's teachings" should be received as His own, that's exactly what he means, "it's teachings." He does not say their teachings, he says "it's teachings."

Satis Cognitum #8
"It was consequently provided by God that the Magisterium instituted by Jesus Christ should not end with the life of the Apostles, but that it should be perpetuated. We see it in truth propagated, and, ‘as it were, delivered from hand to hand. For the Apostles consecrated bishops, and each one appointed those who were to succeed them immediately “in the ministry of the word.”

Nay more: they likewise required their successors to choose fitting men, to endow them with like authority, and to confide to them the office and mission of teaching."

This particular passage clearly shows that the Magisterium is most definitely a living, teaching episcopal body. The authority to TEACH is perpetuated in the successors of the Apostles. The deposit of faith is physically delivered, by the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium, by ordinary and extraordinary means, "from hand to hand."

He continues:

Satis Cognitum #9
"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium."

Proposed
verb
past tense: proposed; past participle: proposed
1. put forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others.

A simple web definition shows that the Magisterium ACTS by PROPOSING doctrine.

The Magisterium is literally the teaching authority commissioned by Christ Himself to go forth and teach all nations.

Satis Cognitum #10
"But as this heavenly doctrine was never left to the arbitrary judgment of private individuals, but, in the beginning delivered by Jesus Christ, was afterwards committed by Him exclusively to the Magisterium already named, so the power of performing and administering the divine mysteries, together with the authority of ruling and governing, was not bestowed by God on all Christians indiscriminately, but on certain chosen persons.

For to the Apostles and their legitimate successors alone these words have reference: “Going into the whole world preach the Gospel.” “Baptizing them.” “Do this in commemoration of Me.” “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them.” And in like manner He ordered the Apostles only and those who should lawfully succeed them to feed – that is to govern with authority – alll Christian souls."

Again, given the context of the term Magisterium, used by Pope Leo XIII, I believe it clearly shows a physical office commissioned by Christ. The Magisterium was established by Christ to guard and protect the whole of Catholic Doctrine - which is immune from all error.

Quote from: Stubborn

Pope Leo XIII is indeed teaching the truth, but he does not say anything like your CE quote. The CE quote, like LG, makes their teachings infallible so long as they're all teaching the same thing at basically the same time - this is NO teaching.

That's not necessarily how I read it, as the CE goes on to explain that the bishops must remain in communion with the pope to retain their teaching authority. There was more context, but you're right, Pope Leo XIII's explanation is much better, and more precise.

MiracleOfTheSun · « **Reply #66 on:** September 22, 2022, 04:00:31 PM »

Basically, until the last sixty years, unless you were a religious the average Catholic knew about piety and not doctrine - say novenas, read about the saints, say your prayers, etc. None of this has to do with Doctrine and even now it's clear that most Trads only want a Latin Mass anyway.

Christ is the Good Shepherd, and a pope rules with that authority. While popes didn't factor in directly at the parish or school level, it was because they didn't have to - what they taught was Catholic. And that made its way through the ranks (schools, penny catechisms, etc.) in just the way the Church was established to run.

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #67 on:** September 22, 2022, 04:14:14 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 22, 2022, 01:56:17 PM

Well said. I learned the Catholic Faith from a priest of the SSPX, as well as older catechisms, and the old Angelqueen forum. Certainly not from any pope. Though I did learn a thing or two from Bp. Williamson and +ABL. But normally, it seems that we are supposed to learn the Faith at a local level, from family and our parish/chapel.

Before the Vll council, how many Catholics really paid that much attention to the Pope?

Absolute rubbish! You sound like a typical Protestant. This demonstrates just how messed up you are about the papacy. This also vindicates my assertion that the R&R position will eventually lead *some* into heresy. Your insistence on the validity of the fake “popes”, Paul VI, JPII, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio has led you into a completely unorthodox understanding of the papacy. Remember, just because you say and accept that so and so is the Vicar of Christ does not make you a Catholic, sorry.

Meg · « **Reply #68 on:** September 22, 2022, 04:31:11 PM »

Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 22, 2022, 04:14:14 PM

Absolute rubbish! You sound like a typical Protestant. This demonstrates just how messed up you are about the papacy. This also vindicates my assertion that the R&R position will eventually lead *some* into heresy. Your insistence on the validity of the fake “popes”, Paul VI, JPII, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio has led you into a completely unorthodox understanding of the papacy. Remember, just because you say and accept that so and so is the Vicar of Christ does not make you a Catholic, sorry.

Sheesh! Should have known my comment would upset sedevacantists, who obsess about the Pope (or rather the guy in Rome whom they believe is not the Pope).

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #69 on:** September 22, 2022, 05:04:45 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 22, 2022, 04:31:11 PM

Sheesh! Should have known my comment would upset sedevacantists, who obsess about the Pope (or rather the guy in Rome whom they believe is not the Pope).

Frankly Meg, the only thing that I can see that saves you from abandonment of the Catholic Faith, is your crass ignorance. Basically you are a Gallican. You believe in the church of the superfluous pope, I believe in a Church in which the pope (Saint Peter) confirms his brethren. I love the papacy, you have disdain for it and sully it. I have undying respect for the pope and his office, you ignore it and assert your authority as superior to it. Yes, we are different, I love the Church, I love the Pope (and the papacy), and I love the Faith.

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #70 on:** September 22, 2022, 05:21:53 PM »

Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 22, 2022, 05:04:45 PM

Frankly Meg, the only thing that I can see that saves you from abandonment of the Catholic Faith, is your crass ignorance. Basically you are a Gallican. You believe in the church of the superfluous pope, I believe in a Church in which the pope (Saint Peter) confirms his brethren. I love the papacy, you have disdain for it and sully it. I have undying respect for the pope and his office, you ignore it and assert your authority as superior to it. Yes, we are different, I love the Church, I love the Pope (and the papacy), and I love the Faith.

Meg: “Well said. I learned the Catholic Faith from a priest of the SSPX, as well as older catechisms, and the old Angelqueen forum. Certainly not from any pope. Though I did learn a thing or two from Bp. Williamson and +ABL. But normally, it seems that we are supposed to learn the Faith at a local level, from family and our parish/chapel. Before the Vll council, how many Catholics really paid that much attention to the Pope?”

Honestly, who can deny that if we traveled back in time to 1950, my statement above would undoubtedly be recognized as coming from the pen of a Catholic, while the one below would be thought to have been written by a resentful Protestant. Think about that.

Meg · « **Reply #71 on:** September 22, 2022, 05:47:04 PM »

Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 22, 2022, 05:21:53 PM

Meg: “Well said. I learned the Catholic Faith from a priest of the SSPX, as well as older catechisms, and the old Angelqueen forum. Certainly not from any pope. Though I did learn a thing or two from Bp. Williamson and +ABL. But normally, it seems that we are supposed to learn the Faith at a local level, from family and our parish/chapel. Before the Vll council, how many Catholics really paid that much attention to the Pope?”

Honestly, who can deny that if we traveled back in time to 1950, my statement above would undoubtedly be recognized as coming from the pen of a Catholic, while the one below would be thought to have been written by a resentful Protestant. Think about that.

You choose to think my statement is protestant (that's your choice) - but at least I believe that we have a pope. You do not. You are popeless. Who's the protestant now?

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #72 on:** September 22, 2022, 06:15:08 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 22, 2022, 05:47:04 PM

You choose to think my statement is protestant (that's your choice) - but at least I believe that we have a pope. You do not. You are popeless.

Yeah, the Coptic Orthodox have a pope too, who is no more legitimate than Francis, outside of the fact that he at least has valid Holy Orders.

Quote

Who's the protestant now?

The one who picks and chooses what doctrines to follow.

Meg · « **Reply #73 on:** September 22, 2022, 06:18:27 PM »

Quote from: DigitalLogos on September 22, 2022, 06:15:08 PM

Yeah, the Coptic Orthodox have a pope too, who is no more legitimate than Francis, outside of the fact that he at least has valid Holy Orders.
The one who picks and chooses what doctrines to follow.

....And the one who makes up his own doctrines to follow, too.

There is no doctrine which states that Catholics are obligated to decide who is or who is not the Pope. We do not decide this for ourselves. It is outside of our perview.

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #74 on:** September 22, 2022, 06:22:45 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 22, 2022, 06:18:27 PM

....And the one who makes up his own doctrines to follow, too.

Yeah, like picking and choosing which doctrines in the Ordinary Magisterium to follow. Like you do.

A positive doubt about the validity of one's orders is not a doctrine. Therefore, avoiding those with doubtful orders is prudence, not generation of doctrine. Plus, it's one that would extend to the SSPX and Resistance as well, otherwise why would they conditionally ordain former NO "priests"?

Quote from: Meg on September 22, 2022, 06:18:27 PM

There is no doctrine which states that Catholics are obligated to decide who is or who is not the Pope. We do not decide this for ourselves. It is outside of our purview.

Right, but Catholics are expected to identify other legitimate Catholics. And it is a doctrine that it is necessary that one is baptized and profess the true Faith in order to be a Catholic. Francis is certainly baptized, but he does not profess the true Faith.

Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible? (Read 6940 times)

Sgt Rock USMC

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Stubborn

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Sgt Rock USMC

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Meg

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Stubborn

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Sgt Rock USMC

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

MiracleOfTheSun

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Quo vadis Domine

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Meg

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Quo vadis Domine

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Quo vadis Domine

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Meg

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

DigitalLogos

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

Meg

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?

DigitalLogos

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?