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Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Yes
22 (71%)
No
0 (0%)
Not Sure
4 (12.9%)
Other
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: September 29, 2022, 04:57:29 PM

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Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?  (Read 9987 times)

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Offline Sgt Rock USMC

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on September 22, 2022, 09:55:45 AM
Well, no. The Deposit of Faith is the body of doctrines which constitute the rule of faith. Those doctrines are not dormant nor hidden from us, they gotta get to us somehow, and the way they get to us is through the Magisterium i.e. "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world" as PPIX teaches in Tuas Libenter, and also V1.

I see that we differ with regards to the rule of faith.  Notwithstanding, here's what I've always understood as the Magisterium:

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.  The Magisterium consists of a teaching body, an episcopal body, at the head of which is the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff.  

The Magisterium, the teaching body, teaches the Church in two ways:

Ordinary Means
Extraordinary Means

The Ordinary means of teaching is as you described in your post.  Each bishop is charged with the teaching of his flock, and this may be delegated to his priests, nuns, etc.  This ordinary way of teaching is described as follows:

Catholic Encyclopedia - Tradition and Living Magisterium
"Although the bishops, taken individually, are not infallible their teaching participates in the infallibility of the Church according as they teach in concert and in union with the episcopal body, that is according as they express not their personal ideas, but the very thought of the Church."

The Extraordinary means of teaching is done through ex cathedra proclamations by the pope, and ecuмenical councils.  

I know this all seems simple, but this has always been my basic understanding of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church.  
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2022, 12:21:58 PM »
Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM
I see that we differ with regards to the rule of faith.  Notwithstanding, here's what I've always understood as the Magisterium:

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.  The Magisterium consists of a teaching body, an episcopal body, at the head of which is the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff.
If this were the case, then the papal quotes in reply #1 of this thread are at least erroneous and certainly not true, whether the chair is currently empty or not. Because the quotes are true, the magisterium has always been, and will forever be immune from error. Which means the magisterium cannot be  a teaching body made up of the pope and episcopacy.


Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM
Catholic Encyclopedia - Tradition and Living Magisterium
"Although the bishops, taken individually, are not infallible their teaching participates in the infallibility of the Church according as they teach in concert and in union with the episcopal body, that is according as they express not their personal ideas, but the very thought of the Church."
This is actually heresy. What the CE is teaching here is the Lumen Gentium heresy. JP2 dubbed V2 as being the "Second Pentecost," which is heresy.

For us, we know that at Pentecost, at the decent of the Holy Ghost upon Our Blessed Mother and the Apostles, St. Peter and all the Apostles were each made individually infallible whenever and wherever they taught the faith. God did this in order to establish Church on earth and facilitate the beginnings of the Church throughout the entire world.

It is because each of the Apostles were individually infallible that wherever and whatever each of the Apostles taught regarding the faith, dispersed as they were  throughout the world, by virtue of the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, were most certainly and could only be, each-individually-infallible, and on that account,
1) whatever they taught regarding the faith, they would have all taught the exact same thing in unison because they all taught the same divinely protected *truths*, as such,
2) no matter what they taught regarding the faith, they would have all been in agreement with each other and St. Peter - not to mention with all the future popes whenever they speak ex cathedra till the end of time.

*That's* the true infallibility of the Apostles, not their successors. That's how infallibility works, that's how infallibility worked when the Church on earth was in it's infancy. This truth is not based on a unanimity of bishops in union with the pope, it's based on the descent of the Holy Ghost upon each one of the Apostles - individually.

OTOH, the NO's Second Pentecost's idea of infallibility is built upon the idea of collegiality, that at V2 aka the Second Pentecost, that's when they made "the unanimous agreement of the totality of bishops in union with the pope" so as to pass off their modernist teachings being infallible, which as we have seen for the last 60 years, their novel doctrine of "bishops in union with the pope" bs is entirely false, on top of that is an utterly diabolical corruption of Pentecost.


Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 11:22:56 AM
The Extraordinary means of teaching is done through ex cathedra proclamations by the pope, and ecuмenical councils. 

I know this all seems simple, but this has always been my basic understanding of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. 
Well, ecuмenical councils without a pope (is there such a thing?) cannot proclaim anything ex cathedra, only popes can, whether in or out of an ecuмenical council.
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Offline Sgt Rock USMC

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2022, 12:57:27 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn
If this were the case, then the papal quotes in reply #1 of this thread are at least erroneous and certainly not true, whether the chair is currently empty or not. Because the quotes are true, the magisterium has always been, and will forever be immune from error. Which means the magisterium cannot be  a teaching body made up of the pope and episcopacy.
But your thinking is directly contrary to what Pope Leo XIII teaches:

Satis Cognitum, #9
...Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true.

Here we have a clear picture of the Magisterium, as articulated by the Roman Pontiff. 

Quote from: Stubborn
This is actually heresy. What the CE is teaching here is the Lumen Gentium heresy. JP2 dubbed V2 as being the "Second Pentecost," which is heresy.
I disagree...  I believe it's perfectly in line with Pope Leo XIII's teaching:

Satis Cognitum #14
...and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicarsof the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.

Quote from: Stubborn
Well, ecuмenical councils without a pope (is there such a thing?) cannot proclaim anything ex cathedra, only popes can, whether in or out of an ecuмenical council.

I don't think I disputed this. 
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Offline Meg

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2022, 01:56:17 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on September 22, 2022, 09:55:45 AM
I don't know where trads learn their faith from these days, but I learned my faith, not from any pope or bishop, I learned it first from my parents, then from a variety of sources including nuns, priests, catechisms and other books and teachers. Some choose to go on to higher learning institutions and or seminaries etc. But for me and probably every other Catholic whose ever lived, what I learned was handed down from them to me. The same is to be said for them, and so on all the way back to the time of the Apostles.

Well said. I learned the Catholic Faith from a priest of the SSPX, as well as older catechisms, and the old Angelqueen forum. Certainly not from any pope. Though I did learn a thing or two from Bp. Williamson and +ABL. But normally, it seems that we are supposed to learn the Faith at a local level, from family and our parish/chapel.

Before the Vll council, how many Catholics really paid that much attention to the Pope?
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2022, 02:11:40 PM »

Quote
But your thinking is directly contrary to what Pope Leo XIII teaches:

Satis Cognitum, #9
...Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true.

Here we have a clear picture of the Magisterium, as articulated by the Roman Pontiff.

Yes, very clear. I think you are missing something. Christ did institute in the Church, "a living, authoritative and permanent magisterium," don't forget that it's immune from error.

When he says "it's teachings" should be received as His own, that's exactly what he means, "it's teachings." He does not say their teachings, he says "it's teachings."


Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 12:57:27 PM

I disagree...  I believe it's perfectly in line with Pope Leo XIII's teaching:

Satis Cognitum #14
...and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicarsof the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.

Catholic Encyclopedia - Tradition and Living Magisterium

"Although the bishops, taken individually, are not infallible their teaching participates in the infallibility of the Church according as they teach in concert and in union with the episcopal body, that is according as they express not their personal ideas, but the very thought of the Church."

Pope Leo XIII is indeed teaching the truth, but he does not say anything like your CE quote. The CE quote, like LG, makes their teachings infallible so long as they're all teaching the same thing at basically the same time - this is NO teaching.  

Compare SG #14 with the heresy taught in LG 25.2 which is more in line with the CE quote you posted....

Quote
LG 25.2
"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held. This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecuмenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith."
There are many trads who believe this, which if true, means that the NO is right and all trads are wrong.....not that being wrong within the NO means anything, unless you're trad.
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