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Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Yes
22 (71%)
No
0 (0%)
Not Sure
4 (12.9%)
Other
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: September 29, 2022, 04:57:29 PM

Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?  (Read 10051 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 07:29:07 AM »
Try not to complicate the simple.

If you believe the quotes in reply #1, then you cannot disagree with me because I believe and even echo them.

If you disagree with me, then you disagree with the quotes in reply #1.

If you disbelieve the quotes, then to you the popes' teachings are wrong (error), mistaken and erroneous.

If you say that you believe the quotes but they do not apply since V2, then the popes' teachings are erroneous. I believe this to be the case.

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 07:43:41 AM »
Can't vote.  OUM is infallible on matters that are taught thereby to be "divinely revealed" (as per the VI definition).  But, as CE states, as a matter of practical judgment, it's not always possible to discern whether something has been taught infallibly by the OUM.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

Quote
And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church may, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecuмenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecuмenical councils and the pope.
While I agree with your post Ladislaus, the bolded is interesting.  Vatican II was an ecuмenical council approved by the pope.  But it had errors in its decrees.  Either the OUM is in error at Vatican II or the man who approved the errors wasn't pope.


Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2022, 10:27:18 AM »
I've been arguing this point with him for years.  He has this bizarre tautological definition of the Magisterium.

If it's true, it's Magisterium.  It's it's not true, then it's not Magisterium.  So, in other words, it's true if it's true and false if it's false.  No a priori guarantee whatsoever of being even somewhat correct.  It is determined to be Magisterium when Stubborn decides it is, having the effect of making Stubborn the Magisterium.

Yes! I’ve told him many times in the past that his line of arguing is completely circular.

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2022, 10:33:09 AM »
Vatican II was an ecuмenical council approved by the pope.  But it had errors in its decrees.  Either the OUM is in error at Vatican II or the man who approved the errors wasn't pope.
Now that's an interesting point...

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 10:39:54 AM »

While I agree with your post Ladislaus, the bolded is interesting.  Vatican II was an ecuмenical council approved by the pope.  But it had errors in its decrees.  Either the OUM is in error at Vatican II or the man who approved the errors wasn't pope.

Exactly, Vermont.