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Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Yes
22 (71%)
No
0 (0%)
Not Sure
4 (12.9%)
Other
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: September 29, 2022, 04:57:29 PM

Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?  (Read 5471 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« on: September 19, 2022, 04:57:29 PM »
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  • Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

    1) Yes
    2) No
    3) Not Sure
    4) Other


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #1 on: September 19, 2022, 05:33:05 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XI, Divini Illius Magistri (#18), Dec. 31, 1929: “… God Himself made the Church a sharer in the divine magisterium and by His divine benefit unable to be mistaken.” ... “To this magisterium Christ the Lord imparted immunity from error...”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum Divinitus (# 4), May 17, 1835: “... the Church has, by its divine institution, the power of the magisterium to teach and define matters of faith and morals and to interpret the Holy Scriptures without danger of error.”

    Pope Leo XIII, Caritatis Studium (#6) July 25, 1898: The Magisterium “could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching.”
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #2 on: September 19, 2022, 06:28:50 PM »
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  • Can't vote.  OUM is infallible on matters that are taught thereby to be "divinely revealed" (as per the VI definition).  But, as CE states, as a matter of practical judgment, it's not always possible to discern whether something has been taught infallibly by the OUM.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
    Quote
    And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church may, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecuмenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecuмenical councils and the pope.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #3 on: September 19, 2022, 06:30:10 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XI, Divini Illius Magistri (#18), Dec. 31, 1929: “… God Himself made the Church a sharer in the divine magisterium and by His divine benefit unable to be mistaken.” ... “To this magisterium Christ the Lord imparted immunity from error...”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum Divinitus (# 4), May 17, 1835: “... the Church has, by its divine institution, the power of the magisterium to teach and define matters of faith and morals and to interpret the Holy Scriptures without danger of error.”

    Pope Leo XIII, Caritatis Studium (#6) July 25, 1898: The Magisterium “could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching.”

    Do you realize what these words mean when you hold the exact opposite?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 06:55:26 PM »
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  • Do you realize what these words mean when you hold the exact opposite?
    :popcorn:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 07:01:24 PM »
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  • Do you realize what these words mean when you hold the exact opposite?

    It’s really really hard to believe that Stubborn can’t see his contradiction.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 05:01:54 AM »
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  • Do you realize what these words mean when you hold the exact opposite?
    I'm not the one who holds the exact opposite, I accept, echo and hold that their explanations are as true today as they were then and always will be. Until you understand it as the popes have explained it, you will have to really need to admit that their teachings on what the magisterium is are wrong (error), mistaken and erroneous - which actually *is* the exact opposite of what they teach.

    For the OP, the Church's universal magisterium is "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX

    It is necessary to remember that within the Church, the word "Universal" *always* includes the element of time, as in "since the time of the Apostles and till the end of time," iow, what the Church has taught and the faithful have believed always and everywhere, this is the simple definition of Church's universal magisterium.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #7 on: September 20, 2022, 06:11:44 AM »
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  • I'm not the one who holds the exact opposite, I accept, echo and hold that their explanations are as true today as they were then and always will be. Until you understand it as the popes have explained it, you will have to really need to admit that their teachings on what the magisterium is are wrong (error), mistaken and erroneous - which actually *is* the exact opposite of what they teach.

    For the OP, the Church's universal magisterium is "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX

    It is necessary to remember that within the Church, the word "Universal" *always* includes the element of time, as in "since the time of the Apostles and till the end of time," iow, what the Church has taught and the faithful have believed always and everywhere, this is the simple definition of Church's universal magisterium.

    HUH? What? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #8 on: September 20, 2022, 06:42:26 AM »
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  • It is necessary to remember that within the Church, the word "Universal" *always* includes the element of time, as in "since the time of the Apostles and till the end of time," iow, what the Church has taught and the faithful have believed always and everywhere, this is the simple definition of Church's universal magisterium.
    So, by definition, the universal ordinary magisterium can't contradict itself because anything new is not the ordinary magisterium.

    This is blatantly false and such a definition would make the OUM a useless tautology basically stating: whatever was true before is still true.

    Only by redefining the magisterium can one escape the fact that the "Church" universally teaches error for the last 60 years.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #9 on: September 20, 2022, 07:17:59 AM »
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  • It’s really really hard to believe that Stubborn can’t see his contradiction.

    I've been arguing this point with him for years.  He has this bizarre tautological definition of the Magisterium.

    If it's true, it's Magisterium.  It's it's not true, then it's not Magisterium.  So, in other words, it's true if it's true and false if it's false.  No a priori guarantee whatsoever of being even somewhat correct.  It is determined to be Magisterium when Stubborn decides it is, having the effect of making Stubborn the Magisterium.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 07:29:07 AM »
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  • Try not to complicate the simple.

    If you believe the quotes in reply #1, then you cannot disagree with me because I believe and even echo them.

    If you disagree with me, then you disagree with the quotes in reply #1.

    If you disbelieve the quotes, then to you the popes' teachings are wrong (error), mistaken and erroneous.

    If you say that you believe the quotes but they do not apply since V2, then the popes' teachings are erroneous. I believe this to be the case.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 07:43:41 AM »
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  • Can't vote.  OUM is infallible on matters that are taught thereby to be "divinely revealed" (as per the VI definition).  But, as CE states, as a matter of practical judgment, it's not always possible to discern whether something has been taught infallibly by the OUM.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

    Quote
    And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church may, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecuмenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecuмenical councils and the pope.
    While I agree with your post Ladislaus, the bolded is interesting.  Vatican II was an ecuмenical council approved by the pope.  But it had errors in its decrees.  Either the OUM is in error at Vatican II or the man who approved the errors wasn't pope.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #12 on: September 20, 2022, 10:27:18 AM »
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  • I've been arguing this point with him for years.  He has this bizarre tautological definition of the Magisterium.

    If it's true, it's Magisterium.  It's it's not true, then it's not Magisterium.  So, in other words, it's true if it's true and false if it's false.  No a priori guarantee whatsoever of being even somewhat correct.  It is determined to be Magisterium when Stubborn decides it is, having the effect of making Stubborn the Magisterium.

    Yes! I’ve told him many times in the past that his line of arguing is completely circular.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #13 on: September 20, 2022, 10:33:09 AM »
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  • Vatican II was an ecuмenical council approved by the pope.  But it had errors in its decrees.  Either the OUM is in error at Vatican II or the man who approved the errors wasn't pope.
    Now that's an interesting point...

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
    « Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 10:39:54 AM »
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  • While I agree with your post Ladislaus, the bolded is interesting.  Vatican II was an ecuмenical council approved by the pope.  But it had errors in its decrees.  Either the OUM is in error at Vatican II or the man who approved the errors wasn't pope.

    Exactly, Vermont.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?