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Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Yes
22 (71%)
No
0 (0%)
Not Sure
4 (12.9%)
Other
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: September 29, 2022, 04:57:29 PM

Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?  (Read 9767 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2022, 06:09:42 AM »
This post is not a 'pick on Meg' post but just a question, and is for anyone really as I used to be R'n'R -

Why are SSPXers attending illegal chapels founded by an Archbishop who is still officially excommunicated?  Have you determined through your own judgment that the popes have been teaching you error?  Or that an Ecuмenical Council has promulgated error?  Or do SSPXers just like the Gregorian Chant and the Latin Mass performed in illegal chapels?
We have no qualms between our obligation to Church authorities and our obligation to save our souls. The obligation to save our souls comes first.

I have quoted Fr. Wathen saying: "We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, that is not questionable, that’s just a matter of observing what has been said, and we can judge that matter as easily as we can judge the pronouncements of a protestant minister. I mean, if a protestant minster says something that is contrary to the faith, it’s not crime or anything for us to say, “That’s heresy”. It does not matter who says it, if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy."


I think the above quote suffices to explain your questions in a nutshell, and it goes well with my signature.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2022, 07:01:07 AM »
I have a point because there is no church teaching that allows for laymen deciding the legitimacy of a pope.

Yes, this is generally true.  But in the scenario of a heretical pope, someone has to be the first to call it out.  You don't go from zero to universal rejection of a papal claimant at the flip of a switch.  There is a progression that goes something like this:

1) Pope manifests heresy in some way.
2) One or more Catholics call it out.
3) Gradually more and more Catholics come to the realization that the man is a heretic.
4) Universal rejection of the papal claimant.

We're at step #3 (somewhere along that path).

But that's the case of an ordinary heretic pope.  And, as I try to point out over and over again, this isn't so much about the heresy or lack thereof of a Pope.  We're confronted with this Conciliar Church.  We find that we don't recognize it as the Catholic Church and feel oblige to sever communion with it.  So the question is whether it is possible for the Catholic Church (via the authority of a legitimate pope), to become so corrupt as to basically require Catholics to sever communion with it and to submission to the Catholic hierarchy, in order to save our souls.  At the end of the day, whether Bergoglio is a heretic or not, it really isn't our problem.  What's our problem is the Conciliar Church.

What's at issue here is whether R&R actually undermine and destroy Catholic doctrine regarding the Magisterium and the Papacy in order to save Bergoglio, just so the can have some guy prancing around in white vestments in Rome.  If you want a guy in white vestments, you would have been better off with David Bawden.  Both of them in your eyes have the same authority, and in fact Bawden had more because his "teaching" was in conformity with Tradition.  This is the R&R ecclesiology, and it's horrible.  There's a real risk of people losing the actual Catholic faith by adhering to false R&R principles.

So, I ask you, why don't you guys jump on board with Father Chazal's sede-impoundism?  This way you can have your guy walking around in white without attributing the evils of the Conciliar Church to the authority of the Pope.  What's your aversion to it?


Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2022, 08:16:41 AM »
Alas it looks like this thread has been degraded into yet another dose of sede vs R&R scurrility.

I agree the Magisterium is immune from all error, there is no doubt about that, since I've provided those quotes countless times.  

I can see where this thread is starting to veer off topic, so I won't say too much more on this.  However, I believe this confusion about the Magisterium stems from the larger problem of not recognizing the pope as our rule of faith.  Or at least failing to recognize the pope as our "proximate" rule of faith.    

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2022, 08:36:34 AM »
What's so classic is that no Trad pays any attention whatsoever to the Vicar of Christ.  Pure comedy (if the pope is legitimate).  

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2022, 08:54:14 AM »
I agree the Magisterium is immune from all error, there is no doubt about that, since I've provided those quotes countless times. 

I can see where this thread is starting to veer off topic, so I won't say too much more on this.  However, I believe this confusion about the Magisterium stems from the larger problem of not recognizing the pope as our rule of faith.  Or at least failing to recognize the pope as our "proximate" rule of faith.   
The pope is the rule of faith when he is immune from error, that is, when he speaks ex cathedra. And I agree 100% it all stems from this.

The rule of faith is truth, i.e the holy Catholic doctrines which we are bound to because without those truths, we place our faith, our trust and belief in error, we then live in error and are lost. These days are a good example of this.

I've always wanted to ask - who is the pope's rule of faith?

Initially, the pioneering trads had no idea that it was the pope who perpetrated all that happened within the Church 60 years ago. For a year at least, (maybe 2 or 3 hard to remember) they kept the faith while waiting for the pope to straighten things out! This shows why the truth / doctrines are the rule of faith.

When they finally found out and accepted the fact that PPVI was the culprit, as regards keeping the faith nothing changed for them because in knowing truth, they knew right from wrong.