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Poll

Are the teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magesterium infallible?

Yes
22 (71%)
No
0 (0%)
Not Sure
4 (12.9%)
Other
5 (16.1%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: September 29, 2022, 04:57:29 PM

Author Topic: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?  (Read 10008 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2022, 02:43:21 PM »
Of course I believe his words, I figured that what I wrote above made that clear. What puzzles me is that you claim to believe it, but in actuality you contradict it.
No, I believe it is as true today as it was then. The Church's magisterium is today, was, and always will be immune from error. It's how we all learn and grown in the true faith, even in these abominable times.

Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2022, 04:06:50 PM »
I think it truly is another language.
Except the confusion in this thread doesn't seem to be about the papacy.  It's about the OUM.


Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2022, 04:32:44 PM »
Catholic Magisterium is not free from error.  IF, MIGHT the Pope and his followers, Bishops take the Graces given to them for their Divine Office, then the Holy Ghost will be there.

Read "The True Story of the Vatican Council, by Henry Manning in archives 1880.  It explains and states that Papal Infallibility had a need to be defined. Yes, defined deeper.  It now has 1 hour and 50 minutes of definition.  

I was very surprised to find what I thought was Papal Infallibility was not what I thought it was.  At Vatican I, 2 Popes were found to be Anti-popes.  This is infallible as well.  Man can error.  He can be given the Graces/powers of God IF/MIGHT they decide to take these Graces.  Vatican I was such a blessing. 

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2022, 04:35:18 PM »
I will try to address some of your other points today, but I don't think I understand your position here. You are claiming the hierarchy cannot defect, so I'm not sure what your belief is about the state of the hierarchy today, since it doesn't appear that you recognize what is coming from Rome right now as part of the Church's teaching either.

I was going to say perhaps you don't understand my position because I never claimed the hierarchy can't defect - if it means teach error in its official, ordinary, universal magisterium, because it has in fact being doing that. So, no, I don't believe that. Anyway, I won't say that's the cause of your misunderstanding since I confuse Vermont as well. :laugh1:

I'm in search of truth, and question. I take positions and vet them, to test their reliability, as I and the rest of you struggle in this crisis in search of reasonable answers. I subject them to the reaches of their logical consequences and, if I see contradiction, and the contradiction holds under continued scrutiny, I know the concept isn't true; the laws of thought necessitate its falsity.

So I'm a bit of a gadfly sometimes, well, most times.


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Is the Catholic Magisterium Infallible?
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2022, 04:51:47 PM »


Regarding your quote about the Church always having a governing body, first of all, it didn't make it into Vatican I, so maybe the Holy Ghost prevented it from going in. Who knows. But it's not a statement of the magisterium, so it doesn't have any authority in itself. Even then, it doesn't say there will always be a living human being holding office in the college of bishops or the papacy. I realize there are different positions on this, and smarter guys than me believe it is Catholic dogma that there will always be a living person holding office as an ordinary, so I tread cautiously here ... but all the quotes adduced as proof of this don't seem quite specific enough to prove the claim they are offered in support of. Okay, so the Church will have "shepherds until the end of time", as Vatican I says. Of course I accept this. But I don't understand how that can't be understood to be simply a description of the fact that the Church has a perpetual structure of authority, both doctrinal and disciplinary, a structure of shepherds that will rule until the end of time. In other words, I don't see why this statement can't be taken as describing the structure within which the shepherds exercise authority, rather than referring to the shepherds themselves, as everyone seems to take it. Obviously, until the post-Vatican II era that distinction has never had to be made, so maybe that's why this quote is not as explicit as we would wish, but I really don't find this argument convincing by itself.

It is a draft constitution on the church prepared by top churchmen and theologians at I believe the pope's request, like the schema for Vatican II that were rejected by the modernists. I think one can safely refer to it as representative of the thought of the Church on the Church's indefectibility.

The draft constitution states what I think is indisputable as to the purpose of indefectibility: "so that through this visible body, Christ may always be the way, the life and the truth for all men." 

As I said elsewhere, a bogus "governing body" accepted by the world as the true Church misrepresenting Christ's truth with an anti-Gospel totally obliterates the raison d'ĂȘtre for indefectibility in the first place. That (the above as expressed in the Vatican I Dogmatic Constitution on th Church) is the reason for the doctrine, not so that it could serve as a way for Sedes to argue away popes and bishops accepted as "the Church" as not popes and bishops of the Catholic Church. 

The maintain that the concept of indefectibility is formally and theoretically true as to the nature of the "true" Church in the face of the reality of the Conciliar Church is to me simply an evasion that soothes some of our troubled minds at best.