Author Topic: Is Pope Francis shutting down the "indult" Masses? (Read 2704 times)

Matto · « **on:** January 25, 2014, 02:46:09 PM »

I was listening to restoration radio yesterday (link) and one of the things mentioned was that Pope Francis has shut down nearly all of the "indult" Masses in Italy. Does anyone know if this is happening elsewhere? I know in my city there are a few "indult" Masses and one of them was shut down and another is rumored to be shutting down soon, but I have not heard anything like what I heard on restoration radio about the "indult" Masses in Italy.

Mabel · « **Reply #1 on:** January 25, 2014, 03:31:42 PM »

I've been looking in to some issues surrounding the Indult this week, I've noticed some closings as well. Not in my immediate area but it definitely looks like they are employing tactics that divide and conquer-- and eventually lead to closings.

St Magnus · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2014, 03:57:21 PM »

TLM's are not subject to indult.

Why keep using the term ?

LoverOfTradition · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2014, 04:15:30 PM »

There was the one at St. Mary Major's that was "shut down." But all of them in Italy? The Latin Mass isn't an Indult anymore in the Counciliar Church (except for the Franciscans of the Immaculate. Poor souls). If the Pope is doing that, then he's going against Summorum Pontificuм, isn't he? Does Restoration Radio have any evidence of this?

Matto · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2014, 04:17:58 PM »

Quote from: St Magnus

TLM's are not subject to indult.

Why keep using the term ?

I use the term because it is easy to say, gets the meaning across, and because I am used to it. What better term would you prefer me to use?

Memento · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2014, 04:30:32 PM »

Quote from: St Magnus

TLM's are not subject to indult.

Why keep using the term ?

I do not mean to start an argument here but one man's opinion on the subject of the Indult is this (I am paraphrasing from remembrance, not quoting) :

Fr. Paul Trinchard S.T.L. , has said in the past that the Mass, as was codified by St. Pius V in Quo Primum is not the same as the Mass of 1962 ( modified by John XXIII, especially in the Canon of the Mass which had not been touched since the 600s) . It is likely that the 1962 Missal can fall under an Indult.

Here are his exact words:

Quote

By contemporary or “posited” church law, one could contend that a priest would need the bishop’s (or establishment Rome’s) permission to say the 1962 illegal (according to Quo Primum) perversion of the Canonized Latin Mass Liturgy. I don’t use the “1962 Liturgy” (as one well-respected group of trad priests does.)

"

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/10Aug/082006pt.htm

This part of his essay as appears in the Daily Catholic I agree with wholeheartedly:

Quote

"Issues concerning sede-vacantism, baptism of desire and other current non-essential concerns serve to distract Traditionalist news publications (e.g. The Wanderer’s one-time obsession with altar girls). Thereby, the essential problem, very few trads are willing to see, admit and properly react to the essential problem: the apocalyptic horror (Apos 13) is in our midst. What makes the bishop “buck naked” is his imposing a fake sacrilegious service in place of the Canonized Latin Mass Liturgy.

Man of the West · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2014, 04:47:47 PM »

I suspect that at the next Synod Francis will devolve a great deal of authority in this matter to national Episcopal conferences knowing full well that they will move to shut down indult Masses in their respective dioceses, just as Cardinal O'Malley of Boston did a couple of months ago. Francis will get the bishops to do his dirty work for him.

I don't expect Indult groups like the FSSP to escape the persecution. Francis has about as much regard for Summorum Pontificuм as Obama has for the Second Amendment. I have personally witnessed an FSSP priest publicly backpedal on the stance that Sum. Pont. justified the Fraternity's position, rhetorically asking "What, did we think everything was hunky-dory after Pope Benedict?" (Yes, he actually said "hunky-dory".)

Well Father, yes, supposedly that was the whole idea. Now let me ask you a question. How do you justify remaining in communion with a putative pope who moves to shut down the very Mass your order exists to celebrate? And if he forces you to abandon it and celebrate the Novus Ordo in the name of community stability, what then will you do?

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2014, 10:36:55 PM »

We'll have to take a "wait and see" approach.

I like what Man of the West had to say on this topic. I do see Pope Francis delegating a lot of authority to local bishops and letting them come up with all sorts of nonsensical reasons for shutting down the indult masses.

It's true that the edict Benedict XVI issued, SP for short, said that priests no longer have to ask permission but the bishops still have control of the faculties and, well, what one pope said isn't binding on future popes (at least that's how the canon lawyers over at CAF keep phrasing it!).

St Magnus · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2014, 11:50:24 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: St Magnus
TLM's are not subject to indult.

Why keep using the term ?

I use the term because it is easy to say, gets the meaning across, and because I am used to it. What better term would you prefer me to use?

The Summorum Pontificuм of BXVI freed the TLM of indult.

To use the term, you imply it hasn't been freed of indult.

Frances · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2014, 02:44:19 AM »

:dancing-banana:
The point is that the goal is to kill the True Mass by any means. As that happens, many of us will hear Mass a lot less often and be deprived of the Sacraments. The Faith is the important thing, and nobody can take that away.

Jehanne · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2014, 08:19:43 AM »

Pope Francis and the bishops will NOT shutdown the "extraordinary form"/Tridentine Masses; they simply bring in too much money. Everyone knows this.

TheKnightVigilant · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2014, 10:17:58 AM »

I think the ideological opposition to Catholicism trumps any financial concerns for Francis and his ilk.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2014, 10:32:53 AM »

Quote from: TheKnightVigilant

I think the ideological opposition to Catholicism trumps any financial concerns for Francis and his ilk.

True.

Besides, having close relationships with Jєωs pretty much ensures you'll never run out of money.

soulguard · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:42:39 AM »

What will some of you do if Francis canonizes the novus ordo missae?

TKGS · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:44:00 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Pope Francis and the bishops will NOT shutdown the "extraordinary form"/Tridentine Masses; they simply bring in too much money. Everyone knows this.

Quote from: TheKnightVigilant

I think the ideological opposition to Catholicism trumps any financial concerns for Francis and his ilk.

TheKnightVigilant is correct, I believe. I do not think that the Conciliar sect has any real concern about the money that the indult (and, yes, even the "motu proprio" really is another indult in different words, for that docuмent does indeed provide for the restrictions of any non-private traditional Mass) brings in.

Frankly, the amount of money brought in might save a parish here and there, but the Conciliar sect isn't hurting for cash to do whatever they want to do. One thing they are certainly not worrying about is how to keep up the maintenance on the buildings in which the traditional Mass is most often said.