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Author Topic: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?  (Read 4418 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
« on: November 13, 2022, 09:58:12 PM »
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  • Is NFP technically contraception even in grave circuмstances then? Mr. Farrell says here Pius XII was contradicted himself on the matter.
    I am in the midst of reading a 1948 Integrity Magazine article that was republished by the SSPX called "Rhythm: The Unhappy Compromise" that says that the Church merely tolerates reluctantly the rhythm method. 

    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #1 on: November 14, 2022, 07:02:18 AM »
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  • Whoever this John Farrel is, he's absolutely right on target.

    In the "Allocution to Midwives", Pius XII cites Pius XI but actually leaves out the crucial part where Pius XI in Casi Conubii effectively condemned NFP.

    Pius XI taught that TWO things are required for the licitness of the marital act --

    1) that the inherent power of the marital act be preserved (vs. artificial birth control)
    AND
    2) that the primary end can never be subordinated to the secondary

    Pius XI LEFT OUT the second condition, citing only the first.  It's this second condition that precludes the licitness of NFP.  Why doesn't he cite that?

    You can clearly tell in the language of this long, rambling speech that Pius XII was doing nothing more than speculating, and that he was not teaching anything authoritative (as opposed to those who claim that this authoritatively decides the matter).

    See, with Pius XII, he didn't actively impose anything harmful, but he "opened the door" (and later the floodgates) to both NFP as Catholic Birth Control and also to Evolution.  Simlar to NFP, Pius XII never taught that it was acceptable, falling short of that, just "permitted' Catholics to debate the subject.

    Pius XII's papacy was, alas, THE watershed that led directly to Vatican II and all its evils.  Pius XII --

    1) opened the door to Evolution
    2) opened the door to NFP
    3) opened the door to Liturgical Experimentation (first appointed to Bugnini to begin the experimentation, push out the "reformed" Holy Week Rites, Psalter, New Vulgate translation, and permitted abominations like "The Mass of the Future"
    4) failed to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
    5) consecrated nearly every bishop who would go on to bring us the glories of Vatican II
    6) allowed the heresiarch Cushing to persecute Father Leonard Feeney for simply reiterating defined Church dogma, thus allowing THE core error (EENS-denial, the resulting non-Catholic ecclesiology that would manifest itself explicitly at Vatican II, and rampant religious indifferentism) to fester and gain the upper hand
    7) failed to curtail or curb the spread of Modernism in any way

    Pius XII was consecrated a bishop on the exact day (May 13, 1917) that Our Lady appeared at Fatima.  He also claimed to have seen the miracle of the sun in the Vatican Gardens.  So it was said that he was "The Fatima Pope".

    Well, probably so, but only in a tragic sense.  Could he have been the one depicted in the released part of the Secret who led the faithful to the slaughter?  He was the last Pope who by consecrating Russia could have prevented Vatican II, but he refused to do so.  Our Lady could very well have appeared on the exact day of his episcopal consecration to indicate that he was the last Pope who could prevent the evils of Vatican II by heeding her requested and consecrating Russia, to prevent the evils she came to warn about when the Jєωs, Communists, and Masons would take over the visible structures of the Church.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #2 on: November 14, 2022, 07:11:31 AM »
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  • So, who is this guy?  I looked at his Youtube video, and he also had several videos condemning Faustina and "The Divine Mercy" devotion as contrary to Catholicism.

    How can he say that if he's a Conciliar Catholic, since Wojtyla "canonzied" her and officially approved the Divine Mercy devotion.  He mentioned the spread of Modernism a couple times.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #3 on: November 14, 2022, 08:58:26 AM »
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  • OP, you may find this previous discussion on the matter useful: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church useful/article-on-nfp-from-introiboadaltaredei/

    The above-linked thread references even previous threads that you may also find useful. 

    Whoever this John Farrel is, he's absolutely right on target.

    In the "Allocution to Midwives", Pius XII cites Pius XI but actually leaves out the crucial part where Pius XI in Casi Conubii effectively condemned NFP.

    Pius XI taught that TWO things are required for the licitness of the marital act --

    1) that the inherent power of the marital act be preserved (vs. artificial birth control)
    AND
    2) that the primary end can never be subordinated to the secondary

    Pius XI LEFT OUT the second condition, citing only the first.  It's this second condition that precludes the licitness of NFP.  Why doesn't he cite that?
    .
    I believe you are wrong to make the distinction you are making. Pius XI teaches that if the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved, the ends are necessarily subordinated. We have argued this specific point about once a year since 2018 or so. Do you have any new arguments or evidence to back up this distinction? 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #4 on: November 14, 2022, 09:32:27 AM »
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  • Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?

    Yes.

    Whatever grave reason you can think of, if it is grave enough that you must not get a child now, then you are obliged to make that certain by complete abstinence.

    So, if you have a grave reason like the government will kill all your children after the first one, you must practise abstinence and not NFP.

    There is no case in which NFP is justified because it necessarily subordinates the primary end of marriage, which is condemned.

    There's really no getting around this.  As I mentioned, if you read Pius XI's Casti Conubii, he clearly states those TWO principles for liceity.  Yet Pius XII, in the Allocution, when he cites Pius XI, is mysteriously silent about that second condition of the non-subordination.

    So, if the situation is grave enough to permit NFP, then complete abstinence would be called for.  So it's THAT serious, but you would still risk conceiving a child by using NFP (as it's not 100% foolproof)?

    Look, there are LOTS of other scenarios that require abstinence.  If I am not married.  Or if I'm married and my wife runs off and leave me.  There's this absurd undercurrent that implies that people have some kind of inalieable God-given right to the marital act.  If your wife is ill or crippled, that's another situation where you must abstain.  So if there's a serious situation, then abstinence might be warranted.

    But if attempting to enjoy the secondary end of the marital act while actively attempting to exclude the primary end is not to subordinate the primary to the secondary, then there's really no such thing as subordinating it.  Although ... they're not fooling anyone.  They're not really about this "secondary end" either, but about pleasure which, although it is tangetially realted to the allaying of concupiscence (part of the secondary end), very few are actually looking at it from such an exalted perspective.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #5 on: November 14, 2022, 09:38:44 AM »
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  • I believe you are wrong to make the distinction you are making. Pius XI teaches that if the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved, the ends are necessarily subordinated.

    Utter hogwash.  He teaches nothing of the sort.  That is your spin on it, and your spin is absurd and ridiculous.  You're really going from bad to worse in terms of the types of things that you defend here.

    As for my "arguments," I need merely cite the text of CC.  Since it is YOU who make the claim (that's nowhere in the text), the burden of proof is on YOU to make the argument.  But the argument is utter garbage.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #6 on: November 14, 2022, 09:42:03 AM »
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  • Utter hogwash.  He teaches nothing of the sort.  That is your spin on it, and your spin is absurd and ridiculous.  You're really going from bad to worse in terms of the types of things that you defend here.
    .
    I'm not going anywhere. I've maintained this literally for years, and you and I have discussed it many times.
    .
    Each time I've based my critique of your explanation on the original Latin (among other things), something I would hope you--of all people-- would be appreciative of. Your case stands and dies on a very specific, and not typical translation of Casti Cannubi. Do you remember?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #7 on: November 14, 2022, 09:47:42 AM »
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  • Here's the actual text of CC:

    Quote
    For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.

    He says that the secondary ends of marriage may be preserved so long as A AND B conditions are met.  There's nothing in the text that asserts that the former is automatically met when the latter is met.  So the burden of proof is quarely on YOU to prove this.

    His grammar makes it quite clear ... SO LONG AS [non-subordination] AND SO LONG AS [nature of the act is preserved]

    Simple logic (Logic 101) dictates that the act is not forbidden if A AND B are in play, meaning that if EITHER condition is missing, it's forbidden.

    What you claim Pius XI is teaching is nowhere to be found in this text.  So the burden is squarely on you to prove it.

    It's quite clear that he's speaking about the FORMAL aspect (ends) along with the MATERIAL aspect (intrinsic nature of the act).  For acts to be human acts, they require both the material act AND the formal intent.  You can sin by formal intent even when the act itself is not intrinsically evil.

    If you take $100 off a table thinking it's yours, whereas in reality it belongs to someone else, there's a grave material injustice there (it's intrinsically unjust), but you commit no sin due to lack of formal intent.  If on the other hand, you take $100 off the table thinking it belongs to someone else (whereas it's actually your own), while the act is not intrinsically unjust (as it's actually your money and you are not in unjust possession of it), you still commit the grave sin of theft due to your formal intent.

    For you to claim that the material aspect alone ensures compliance with the formal aspect is utter absurdity and contradicts all Catholic moral theology.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #8 on: November 14, 2022, 10:04:13 AM »
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  • Mithrandylan, even if you're right, and you're definitely not, you can do little good by convincing someone of your position but you can do immense harm.

    Also, name one reason grave enough for NFP to be allowable but that doesn't obligate you to abstain.
    .
    What a strange thing to say. Do you believe that truth paves the way for error? 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #9 on: November 14, 2022, 10:19:24 AM »
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  • Ladislaus, here is the Deferrari translation of the passage in question: 


    Quote
    [Sterile relations are intrinsically lawful because] in matrimony itself, as in the practice of the conjugal right, secondary ends are also considered, such as mutual aid, the cultivation of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence, which spouses are by no means forbidden to attempt, provided the intrinsic nature of that act is preserved, and so its due ordering is towards its primary end. 

    .
    Contra the translation you are using, the one I have produced says that if the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved, then the ends are duly ordered. So, which translation is correct?
    .
    As an accomplished Latinist, I imagine you will appreciate the original Latin as well:
    .

    Quote
    ...dummodo salva semper sit intrinseca illius actus natura ideoque eius ad primarium finem debita ordinatio (AAS 22, 539)
    .
    The affably erudite Fr Vermeersch, who was Pius XI's chief moral consultant and the principal ghost-writer of the encyclical, was commissioned to release a small catechism of commentary on it. There is no greater human authority on the meaning of the encyclical, and he explains:


    Quote
    As long as the act takes place normally it remains objectively directed toward its primary end, which is generation; and since, according to the maxim that the purpose of the law is not within the matter of the law (finis legis non cadit sub legem), there is no obligation, while observing the law, to intend the end for which it was promulgated, it follows that the act is not necessarily vitiated by deliberately choosing a certain time with the intention of avoiding conception. (What is Marriage? A Catechism arranged According to the Encyclical Casti Connubii, 1932, p. 44)

    .
    That is my case in brief. I have given it to you in this thread and this one. What is your rebuttal?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #10 on: November 14, 2022, 10:20:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: ServusInutilisDomini 11/14/2022, 10:00:41 AM

    “But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.  Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.

    “Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death.  As St. Augustine notes, ‘Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of offspring is prevented.’  Onan, the son of Judah, did this and the Lord killed him for it (Gen. 38:8-10).

    ~ Pope Pius XI: Casti Connubii


    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/natural-family-planning-nfp/


    Not gonna lie... having reference to the Dimond Brothers does NOT help your case any.

    Aside from Creation and a few other basics ("a broken clock is right twice a day", plus we Catholics agree with Mormons, Baptists, and many other heretics on countless elements of the Natural Law), they get just about everything else wrong. They are the modern-day Pharisees, with all the same faults Our Lord condemned the Pharisees for: Making up laws, condemning others unjustly, rash judgment, cutting themselves off from God, forgetting Charity, etc.

    If you want to make your point, I would avoid bringing the Dimond Brothers into it. Unless you want to have the opposite effect :)

    I'm not kidding. The Dimond Brothers are SO bad, that if a Catholic immediately dismissed your criticism of NFP as "Oh, that's more Dimond Brothers extremist nonsense" THEY WOULD BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD IN DOING SO. Even if that was their only reason.

    If I dismissed something being pushed by (((Red Sea Pedestrians))) and God wouldn't hold it against me for failing to look into it, the same would apply to other villains like the Dimond Brothers.

    After all, when a mouthpiece has been proven vile and wrong 100 times, you can be at least MORALLY certain (maybe not metaphysically or scientifically certain) that they are wrong the 101st time. It's about moral certainty -- enough to base one's actions on.

    I would sooner follow a Novus Ordo priest, or maybe even some conservative protestant pastor, before I'd give any ear to the Dimond Brothers on anything. Their reputation has been utterly annihilated beyond repair in my opinion. I consider them schismatic (for cutting themselves off from the One True Church -- by presuming to excommunicate good Catholics who are part of the Mystical Body of Christ) and heretical.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #11 on: November 14, 2022, 10:30:40 AM »
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  • By the way, that Dimond Bros. link quoted some heartbreaking letters to the editor of Seattle Catholic…

    Yeah, that's the Dimond brothers for ya. All about emotion, rhetoric, and being wrong SO OFTEN. But their worst crimes are those against Charity, where they presume to cut off Catholics (by excommunication) who are objectively part of the Mystical Body of Christ. That makes THEM schismatic. That's what a schismatic does -- they cut themselves off from the Church.

    When you take a chainsaw to the Mystical Body of Christ like some demonic villain in a horror movie -- then YOU are the bad guy. It's simple.

    Controversy is fine. Rhetoric is fine. Arguing is fine. But condemning and excommunicating others? That is over the line.

    The Dimond Brothers have plenty of zeal -- but 100% of it is BITTER ZEAL which works against God's goals and interests, not for them.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #12 on: November 14, 2022, 10:34:31 AM »
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  • If I may butt into this debate:

    https://classicalpoets.org/2022/07/26/elegy-for-the-child-never-conceived-by-joshua-c-frank/

    Elegy for the Child Never Conceived

    His would-be parents had but days;
    The procreative ship sat docked,
    And with the passengers’ delays,
    That ship is gone, forever locked,
    But if, instead, he’d been conceived
    And been allowed to live and die,
    His soul could one day be received
    In the embrace of God Most High.


    And hence it grieves my heart to see
    A child-shaped space unoccupied,
    Not running in the grass with glee,
    Nor leaning on his mother’s side,
    And no one in his space in bed
    To kiss goodnight while tucking in;
    No smiling face, no heart well-fed,
    No warm caress from hands to skin.


    When weighed against one human soul,
    No sacrifice too great to give
    Could ever be for such a goal
    That one’s own child may simply live.




    Whether or not NFP “is” contraception, the end result is the same.

    By the way, that Dimond Bros. link quoted some heartbreaking letters to the editor of Seattle Catholic…
    .
    Are we utilitarians? Is 'the end result' what makes something moral? Is there no moral difference between keeping a thief locked up in your basement and handing him off to the authorities? Imprisonment is the end result in both cases. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #13 on: November 14, 2022, 10:40:22 AM »
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  • I'm not a theologian, I don't play one on TV (or on CathInfo), and I won't presume to rule anything "definitively" in this NFP debate. I just want to point out ONE piece of stupidity from the Dimond Brothers, to make my point about them. This was quoted from their page against NFP:


    Quote
    “But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.  Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.

    “Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death.  As St. Augustine notes, ‘Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of offspring is prevented.’  Onan, the son of Judah, did this and the Lord killed him for it (Gen. 38:8-10).


    This is CLEARLY talking about artificial birth control, not NFP. Just saying. Carry on...
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is NFP really contraception in any circuмstance?
    « Reply #14 on: November 14, 2022, 10:42:20 AM »
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  • Reminds me of a joke I heard years ago...

    "What do you call a woman who uses the Rhythm Method for birth control?"

    "Mom"
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