Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?  (Read 7430 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dawn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2439
  • Reputation: +47/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • h
Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2010, 06:24:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I honestly looked around on this. And, all I kept coming up with were articles that he DID sign them. Then when I saw this one I knew it was what I was looking for. The article from Tradition in Action is a very nice article not hostile. However, it points out the truth. We are all called to be Athanasius and this did not happen.

    Offline SJB

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5171
    • Reputation: +1932/-17
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #16 on: November 07, 2010, 07:48:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Dawn
    I honestly looked around on this. And, all I kept coming up with were articles that he DID sign them. Then when I saw this one I knew it was what I was looking for. The article from Tradition in Action is a very nice article not hostile. However, it points out the truth. We are all called to be Athanasius and this did not happen.


    Let's say ABL (or anybody for that matter) DID NOT sign all the docuмents of V2. How in the world does that make him an Athanasius???
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-1
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #17 on: November 07, 2010, 08:26:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • For pity sake. The whole article from TIA was on whether or not he signed all of the docuмents. Their point was when faced with the choice of signing papers he thought held heresies he did sign them. You act as though I wrote the article which of course I did not.
    But, the truth is that each and everyone of us will be called to make a stand. To stand against heresy and they referred to Athanasius in this article, but it could just as easily have read St. John Fisher. And, when push came to shove HE SIGNED. Remember as is pointed out quite frequently here I am a sede so I do not think that Archbishop Lefebvre ever was the Bishop predicted to restore the Church. I do not think he ever was period and now he has been dead all of these years there is proof enough of that.
    It has been mentioned on this board that if not for Lefebvre there would be no Tradition, no Latin Mass which is positively absurd. The record speaks for itself. There were many who never ever compromised no matter what and it is because of those men we have the True Mass of Pope St. Pius V and not just the compromise Mass of  1962.

    Offline SJB

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5171
    • Reputation: +1932/-17
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #18 on: November 07, 2010, 10:26:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The reference to the denial is found in in Apendix IV of Apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre, Part One. Gaudium et Spes and Dignitatis Humanae were said to have been not signed by ABL.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3021
    • Reputation: +2/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #19 on: November 07, 2010, 11:30:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • More brilliant logic from the folks at TIA.  One wonders if their bodies are made of wood too or if it's just their reasoning ability.  Taking advantage of historical perspective is most disingenuous.  ABL was part of a Catholic Ecuмenical Council, how could he not maintain such a deference in the beginning, even if some of the statements in these docuмents appeared suspect?  He was a faithful Roman Bishop, the benefit of the doubt was certainly present in the great historical moment of sitting in Council.  The great work of the past 20 Councils surely informed this instinctive attitude.  Why should this one be any different?  Such an enormous event takes time to sink into the mind, Dawn's preternatural gifts aside.  Given the fact that the Fathers continually broke the rules of the Council, I would not be surprised in the least if through confusion of proceedings, he signed a docuмent that ended up being the final work.  The presence of his signature doesn't negate his internal reservations.  Only after seeing the matter after mature deliberation, did he draw out all the consequences.  

    But of course, no great man of the Church, no saintly Bishop or Doctor ever made a mistake, they never erred in a slight prudential matter or in a question of fact, they were never deceived or trusted the wrong person even momentarily.  No, that'ts not possible according to the logic of TIA.  Yes, like a bird of prey, they circle until an opportunity is presented to descend in attack, impugning the character of a man who they could only hope to imitate.  Next they should go after St. Cyril and his weak affirmations of the Divinity of the Holy Ghost in the heat of controversy.  Or St. Thomas in his struggle with the Immaculate Conception.  Or St. Jerome in his pelagian sounding writings.  They've already done quite a number on John Henry Newman, and I'm sad to say that there was involved not a few mortal sins in that campaign of ignorance.  Any joker with a website becomes an authority these days.  Who cares what "TIA" some lady with a computer thinks?  But now we have to clean up endless messes because of such a lack of discretion spread by the blessings of modern technology.            


    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-1
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 05:34:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I guess my first step would be to contact Fr. Peter Scott.

    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1953/-361
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 05:57:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it better to go after the truth or to obfuscate? We live in an age of false images, manipulation and trickery. So much of this is part of ordinary daily thinking and practice to the point of become a person's second nature. Add to this a higher level of erudite interpretation and fuzzy logic intended to muddy the water further and we say goodbye to truth once and for all in order to maintain a glossy reputation, cold partisanship and a conceited feeling of well-being.

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #22 on: November 08, 2010, 11:43:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Likewise I would say the same about ABL in giving him a messianic persona in spite of his undoubted importance within the trad movement.


    I think it is too late for that.


    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #23 on: November 08, 2010, 11:46:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Wessex
    Is it better to go after the truth or to obfuscate? We live in an age of false images, manipulation and trickery. So much of this is part of ordinary daily thinking and practice to the point of become a person's second nature. Add to this a higher level of erudite interpretation and fuzzy logic intended to muddy the water further and we say goodbye to truth once and for all in order to maintain a glossy reputation, cold partisanship and a conceited feeling of well-being.


    Most people are no longer interested in either facts or the truth as that would necessitate them rethinking their conclusions.  And I am not just referring to the SSPX, lest anyone get the wrong idea.

    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3021
    • Reputation: +2/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #24 on: November 08, 2010, 12:12:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Wessex
    Is it better to go after the truth or to obfuscate? We live in an age of false images, manipulation and trickery. So much of this is part of ordinary daily thinking and practice to the point of become a person's second nature. Add to this a higher level of erudite interpretation and fuzzy logic intended to muddy the water further and we say goodbye to truth once and for all in order to maintain a glossy reputation, cold partisanship and a conceited feeling of well-being.


    The obfuscation resides soley with you and those who think this has any relevance.  My entire point is: so what?  What does a signature have to do with anything other than the imaginary premise that it means irrevocable assent?  This "fact" exists in your imagination.  It has nothing to do with my "comfort" because it is irrelevant.  This comes down to the hidden assumptions on the part of those who hold this out as somehow signficant.  

    And another thing.  TIA infers from mere chronology that ABL could not be that important, referring to other heroes that came before.  That is also irrelevant and illogical.  One looks at the quality, stability and fecundity of the work, not who came first.  The Vietnamese bishop was unstable, unpredicatable and his work came to naught but confusion and division, but hey, he came first so he must detract from ABL's greatness!  ABL's work clearly carries with it a divine quality and this has significance within the Church.  TIA (or the lady writing the opinion piece) is blind to this fact, like so many others.  

    And for those offended by referring to the names or persons of founders, then I suggest you all start a movement attempting to abolish using the names of Francis, Dominic, etc.  

         

    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3021
    • Reputation: +2/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #25 on: November 08, 2010, 12:15:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Most people are no longer interested in either facts or the truth as that would necessitate them rethinking their conclusions.


    Well said.  The problem that must be surmounted is realizing when one is substituting opinion for fact.  This involves a great deal of self-reflection.  Many seem to think that the demise of Catholicism will come about when they must relinquish their opinions.  


    Offline Telesphorus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12713
    • Reputation: +28/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #26 on: November 08, 2010, 12:22:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The problem that must be surmounted is realizing when one is substituting opinion for fact.


    The real problem is the society substituting its opinions and wishful thinking for the facts.

    Wessex's post was excellent and should be a reason for society chapel goers to reflect.  The thing that can ruin the SSPX is blind obedience.


    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #27 on: November 08, 2010, 12:26:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Caminus
    Quote
    Most people are no longer interested in either facts or the truth as that would necessitate them rethinking their conclusions.


    Well said.  The problem that must be surmounted is realizing when one is substituting opinion for fact.  This involves a great deal of self-reflection.  Many seem to think that the demise of Catholicism will come about when they must relinquish their opinions.


    Caminus, another red letter day for me!  I agree.  :cool:

    Offline hollingsworth1

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 103
    • Reputation: +24/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 12:34:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote
      The thing that can ruin the SSPX is blind obedience.


    Or, to express it another way, 'The thing than can ruin the SSPX faithful is blind obedience to everything the present leadership says and/or commands.'  I don't mean to champion wanton rebellion either.  We do need traditional Catholic clergy setting our course in the right direction.  But, unfortunately, there is major cleavage at the very top of the SSPX hierarchy.  That fact is beyond dispute.  Is it any wonder that there is confusion amongst the rank and file lay members, and even amongst some priests in the Society?

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Is Msgr. Lefebvre the Prelate Predicted to Restore the Church?
    « Reply #29 on: November 08, 2010, 01:41:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Dawn
    I guess my first step would be to contact Fr. Peter Scott.


    If my memory serves me correctly, I think this has already been done.