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Author Topic: Is Mary Co-Redeemer?  (Read 2207 times)

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Re: Is Mary Co-Redeemer?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2021, 03:40:51 PM »
According to this article, there is evidence to support what you say.

In the preparatory phase of Vatican II about 300–500 bishops asked for a definition or formal statement of Marian mєdιαtion and 54 asked for a definition of Mary as co-redemptrix. Pope St. John XXIII, however, made it clear that the Council would not be seeking to proclaim new dogmas.
A draft prepared in advance for the Council spoke of Mary as co-redemptrix, but the fathers of Vatican II decided to omit the term from what would become chapter VIII of Lumen gentium. The term, however was not rejected because it was false. In the praenotanda or explanatory note that accompanied the first Marian schema of 1962, we are told that: “Certain terms and expressions used by Roman Pontiffs have been omitted, which, although most true in themselves (in se verissima), may be difficult for the separated brethren (as in the case of the Protestants) to understand. Among such words the following may be enumerated: ‘Coredemptrix of the human race’ [St. Pius X, Pius XI]; ‘Reparatrix of the whole world’ [Leo XIII] … etc.” (Acta Synodalia Sacrosancti Concilii Oecuмenici Vaticani II, Volumen I, Periodus Prima, Pars IV [Vatican City, 1971], p. 99).
The title co-redemptrix, however, appears in two footnotes of the 1962 schema. Footnote 11 states that ‘the compassion of Mary has a connection with the redemption in such a way that she may rightly be called co-redemptrix’ (Acta Synodalia Sacrosancti Concilii Oecuмenici Vaticani II, Volumen I, Periodus Prima, Pars IV, 1971: 104). In the 1962 schema there was also a lengthy footnote explaining the meaning of terms such as Meditatrix and Coredemptrix as applied to Mary.
The 1962 Marian schema formed the basis for chapter eight of Lumen Gentium, but the final conciliar text did not include the two footnotes on the title co-redemptrix. Even though the title co-redemptrix is not used, some theologians such as Jean Galot, S.J and Georges Cottier, O.P., believe that Lumen Gentium affirms the doctrine of Marian coredemption without using the title (see Galot in La Civilità Cattolica [1994] III: 236-237 and Cottier, in L’Osservatore Romano, June 4, 2002).
https://wherepeteris.com/pope-francis-and-mary-co-redemptrix/

We have had plenty of time since the Council to see how badly this strategy of  not offending Protestants works.  It is not reasonable to continue it.
Missed you Jayne!

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Is Mary Co-Redeemer?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 07:34:44 AM »
No, Our Lady is not "co-redeemer." I agree with the Dimonds on this one:

https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/mary-co-redeemer-co-redemptrix/


Here's a quote from Msgr. Pohle in the article:


Quote
Fr. Joseph Pohle, A Dogmatic Treatise On The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother Of God, Imprimatur, 1919: “… it would be wrong to call her [Mary] redemptrix, because this title obscures the important truth that she herself was redeemed through the merits of Jesus Christ by what theologians technically term preredemption.  Even the title coredemptrix had better be avoided as misleading.  The titles redemptrix and coredemptrix were never applied to the Blessed Virgin before the sixteenth century; they are the invention of comparatively recent writers…”


A 16th Century invention. That has a familiar ring to it, no?






Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Is Mary Co-Redeemer?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2021, 07:40:00 AM »
Some very good perspective from the MHFM article:


Quote
Consistent with the typology of Jesus as the second Adam who reverses the curse of Adam, Mary is the new Eve.  Jesus is the new Adam, and Mary is the new Eve.  Just as Eve, the first woman, was intimately involved with the first man in the events which led up to the fall of mankind, there is a woman, Mary, who is intimately involved in the events leading up to the Redemption.  Eve disobeyed God and sinned.  Mary obeyed God and never sinned.  Much more could obviously be said on this issue; but the point here is that while Eve’s role with Adam in the events leading up to the original sin was unique and crucial, it was nevertheless the sin of Adam alone which constituted the original sin and effectuated the downfall of mankind.  That’s very clear in Catholic teaching.

Quote
Romans 5:12- “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death…”




Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Is Mary Co-Redeemer?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2021, 09:50:39 AM »
I think that we see two extremes.

Certainly the title of Co-Redemptrix COULD be misleading in suggesting potentially a parity between what Our Lady did and Our Lord's sacrifice.  As is clear, only the GOD-man could effect the Redemption of mankind ... going back to St. Anselm's brilliant Cur Deus Homo?  

But then you have the neo-con-Catholic apologists (starting with Vatican II) explaining away Our Lady's unique role and making her just a pre-eminent example of how we ALL can help in the work of Redemption.  So to them she's just the best and most exalted example of our role in cooperating with Our Lord's redemption ... as per the teaching of St. Paul:  "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:" (Colossians I:24)

Our Lady is clearly IN BETWEEN.  She has a unique role.  While she is not at the same level as Our Lord in the Redemption, she clearly cannot be reduced to just a pre-eminent example of the share in Our Lord's work of Redemption that any of the faithful can have.

So what term would be fitting to describe that role?  When we look at our term "co-pilot", it's clearly understood that the co-pilot is in a SUBORDINATE role to the pilot.  Or the term "co-operator" suggests the existence of a primary operator.  So if the "co-" in Co-Redemptrix is clearly understood in that sense, then I see no issue with it.  While the TERM was perhaps coined in the 16th century, the concept of Our Lady's UNIQUE role in Redemption as Theotokos has ALWAYS been there.  So I think it's just a semantic battle as to what is the right terminology.

Precisely because the Novus Ordo has reduced her role and blended it in with that of the rest of the faithful, in order to appease the Protestants, I think that a Magisterial treatment (whether dogmatic or not) would certainly be in order to undo that particular error since it has affected the thinking of many NO Catholics.  Whether the term Co-Redemptrix is apt or suitable is partly a question of prudence and partly of semantics.

I think that all of those on either side of the issue agree on the CONCEPTS here, that Our Lady participated in a unique way in Our Lord's work of Redemption, but that she was not on a par with the Redemption and that only the God-man could accomplish the work.  We Traditional Catholics avoid the NO reductionist error and also the error of overstating her role to be on a par with that of Our Lord.

Whenever the Church defines something, it's nearly always because some contrary error has crept in.  Certainly there's no such error among Traditional Catholics, but the NO has introduced this reductionism that must be condemned.  In terms of exaggerating Our Lady's role, if you take out the kook fringe groups, some of whom say that Our Lady is a member of the Holy Trinity or the Valtortan error of claiming that she was part of the hierarchy just below St. Peter, or some other fringe nutcase job, I don't see too much of the exaggeration taking place.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Is Mary Co-Redeemer?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2021, 12:10:17 PM »
I just wanted to chime in to say:

I'm not chiming in. Not qualified, not enough Theology soaked up during meals or "Spiritual Conferences" during my Seminary years to have an informed opinion on this topic.

In short, my contribution is:

"..."

or

"Carry on..."