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Author Topic: Is Francis the Pope?  (Read 4825 times)

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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Is Francis the Pope?
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2019, 05:40:18 PM »
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  • At the end of the day a non catholic can not be head of the Catholic Church , when others ridicule the sede position (not you) we must point this out, that they believe someone who doesn’t profess the Catholic faith is their pope

    So you, with power granted by Christ, have hereby decided that Francis is not a Catholic?

    Where is the hierarchy in your line of thinking?

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #31 on: December 28, 2019, 06:12:30 PM »
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  • Is Francis’ heresy not public, obstinate, and pertinacious? 

    Has he not clearly gotten his heretical messages across, as well as his understanding that his teachings are heretical, and that whenever they are ambiguous in meaning, that he means for them to be understood in an heretical sense?

    Can a pope teach heresy?

    Under canon law, can a pope be coerced into validly resigning?

    Can a pope validly resign part of his ministry, but not the other, effectively expanding the office of the papacy to include two individuals?

    Has Francis made any indications that he sees himself as holding part of the office of the papacy, but not the other?

    When the truth is obvious, are we to not believe our lying eyes out of some sense of charity or obedience?


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #32 on: December 28, 2019, 10:28:40 PM »
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  • So you, with power granted by Christ, have hereby decided that Francis is not a Catholic?

    Where is the hierarchy in your line of thinking?
    1. is your argument that Jewgorglio is actually a  Catholic?
    2. are you implying  that if i apply the truth of a dogma that it' s my private interpretation

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #33 on: December 28, 2019, 10:37:54 PM »
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  • But that's just one position, the Bellarmine position (unless you're Salza or Siscoe).  Other theories hold that a non-Catholic (aka heretic) must be removed from office by the Church, and the sedeprivationist thesis that he formally ceases to be pope but then must be removed materially.  This is an oversimplification.
    sedevacantists  say non catholic ceases to be  pope, even if he's physically there.....your position is non catholic , ceases to be pope and must be removed materially. at the end of the day you are saying he's not the pope ...the way he has to  be removed is another discussion is it not? Can't I hold the sedevacant  position and claim he must be removed materially for argument's sake.  Can you explain to me how sedevacantists differ exactly on the to be removed materially part?

    Offline poche

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #34 on: December 29, 2019, 04:27:02 AM »
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  • sedevacantists  say non catholic ceases to be  pope, even if he's physically there.....your position is non catholic , ceases to be pope and must be removed materially. at the end of the day you are saying he's not the pope ...the way he has to  be removed is another discussion is it not? Can't I hold the sedevacant  position and claim he must be removed materially for argument's sake.  Can you explain to me how sedevacantists differ exactly on the to be removed materially part?
    From the Code of Canon Law;
    Can.  1404 The First See is judged by no one.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #35 on: December 29, 2019, 05:40:00 AM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;
    Can.  1404 The First See is judged by no one.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM

    "But when Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." Galatians 2:11

    In saying Peter was blameworthy, did St. Paul judge the First See?

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #36 on: December 29, 2019, 09:50:49 AM »
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  • If Songbird understood the teaching of Pope Leo XIII and the history of the ordination rite, he/she/it would know that the the new rite of ordination is valid.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #37 on: December 29, 2019, 10:05:02 AM »
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  • If Songbird understood the teaching of Pope Leo XIII and the history of the ordination rite, he/she/it would know that the the new rite of ordination is valid.

    Michael Davies’ book “The Order of Melchizedek” was always a bit of a mystery to me in this regard:

    He repeatedly affirms the validity of the new rite, even as he draws, throughout the book, the analogy to the invalidating changes to the Anglican rite.

    It always left me asking myself, “OK, so why bother to write the book?”

    And if the answer were, “To put traditionalists at ease regarding the new rite,” then why trouble them by drawing the Anglican analogy (which is the general disturbance of soul produced by the book, despite Davies’ affirmation of validity)?

    Again, why, then, bother to write the book?

    Was he being coy, fearing to declare the rite invalid, but imparting to the reader the reasons it might be (despite his affirmation to the contrary)?  

    Not sure.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #38 on: December 29, 2019, 10:07:11 AM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;
    Can.  1404 The First See is judged by no one.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM

    This is from the NEW code of canon law, promulgated by JP2 in 1983, isn't that right?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #39 on: December 29, 2019, 10:08:03 AM »
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  • Michael Davies’ book “The Order of Melchizedek” was always a bit of a mystery to me in this regard:

    He repeatedly affirms the validity of the new rite, even as he draws, throughout the book, the analogy to the invalidating changes to the Anglican rite.

    It always left me asking myself, “OK, so why bother to write the book?”

    And if the answer were, “To put traditionalists at ease regarding the new rite,” then why trouble them by drawing the Anglican analogy (which is the general disturbance of soul produced by the book, despite Davies’ affirmation of validity)?

    Again, why, then, bother to write the book?

    Was he being coy, fearing to declare the rite invalid, but imparting to the reader the reasons it might be (despite his affirmation to the contrary)?  

    Not sure.
    DID YOU READ THE FIRST OR SECOND EDITION?
    It is reported that he drew different conclusions in the editions. I have tried to buy a FIRST edition, but, even when advertised as a FIRST edition, I received the second edition.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #40 on: December 29, 2019, 10:27:15 AM »
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  • In the last analysis, what matters is not what Michael Davies was thinking, but only the sacramental doctrine of the Church. The new rite of ordination uses an unquestionably valid centuries old sacramental form that was eventually discarded in favour of the one form which became standard throughout the Latin Patriarchate. It is not defective. Therefore, the new rite does not suffer a "defect of form" as did Parker's Anglican rite, which destroyed the validity of Anglican orders, as Leo XII taught in Apostolicæ Curæ.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #41 on: December 29, 2019, 10:28:13 AM »
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  • DID YOU READ THE FIRST OR SECOND EDITION?
    It is reported that he drew different conclusions in the editions. I have tried to buy a FIRST edition, but, even when advertised as a FIRST edition, I received the second edition.

    Now that’s interesting.

    Not sure which edition I have (not home right now), but it is 20 years-old, at least.

    When was the 2nd edition published?

    In any case, I would not be surprised if Michael Davies later edited this book in a new edition to bring it around to conciliarism.

    He did this very thing in the new edition of Pope John’s Council (published by Angelus Press), which contains many conciliar adaptations (eg., defense of Dominus Iesus, declaring they Orthodox possess apostolicity, etc.).

    The SSPX wanted to make it seem as though Davies had left the indult and returned to tradition toward the end of his life, but the reality was that the SSPX was moving in his direction, and therefore proliferating his conciliarized books.

    Then of course the SSPX has sneakily been modifying other books toward the same end (eg., no longer including active participation in the NOM in the examination of conscience of Christian Warfare, while injecting the conciliar Divine Mercy devotion into the same revision.  Meanwhile, it’s German bookstores sell materials by Ratzinger, Schneider, and even von Balthasar (while other volumes omit the “St.” title from the books by saints, etc).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #42 on: December 29, 2019, 10:28:37 AM »
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  • In the last analysis, what matters is not what Michael Davies was thinking, but only the sacramental doctrine of the Church. The new rite of ordination uses an unquestionably valid centuries old sacramental form that was eventually discarded in favour of the one form which became standard throughout the Latin Patriarchate. It is not defective. Therefore, the new rite does not suffer a "defect of form" as did Parker's Anglican rite, which destroyed the validity of Anglican orders, as Leo XIII taught in Apostolicæ Curæ.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #43 on: December 29, 2019, 10:41:52 AM »
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  • Davies’ general thoughts:

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/ordinal.htm

    Note, however, that in this article Davies is merely championing the conciliar 1968 rite of priestly ordination vs the later revised 1989 rite of priestly ordination (which is even worse).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #44 on: December 29, 2019, 11:16:30 AM »
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  • The 1989 is clearly better, though both are valid. What is lacking in the new rite of 1968 is what theology calls the "integrity" of the rite.

    From Sean's link: "Needless to say, the authority of the Church is as decisive in affirming the validity of a sacramental rite as in affirming its invalidity. The papal approbation given to the Latin Typical Editions of all the post-conciliar sacramental rites places their validity beyond dispute ...

    One of the promises has had words added which do refer specifically to the priestly vocation of offering sacrifice and absolving the faithful from their sins. The additional words are indicated in italic ...

     

    Vis mysteria Christi ad laudem Dei et sanctificationem populi christiani, secundum Ecclesiae traditionem, pie et fideliter celebrare?



    Are you resolved to celebrate the mysteries of Christ for the glory of God and the sancitification of the Christian people, according to the Tradition of the Church, faithfully and religiously?
     
    Vis mysteria Christi ad laudem Dei et sanctificationem populi christiani, secundum Ecclesiae traditionem, praesertim in Eucharistiae sacrificio et sacramento reconciliationis, pie et fideliter celebrare?

    Are you resolved to celebrate the mysteries of Christ for the glory of God and the sancitification of the Christian people, according to the Tradition of the Church, especially the Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Sacrament of Reconciliation, faithfully and religiously?

    ...The proper postcommunion for the Mass of priestly ordination, found on page 207 of the Latin Ordinal, states with admirable clarity that the Divine Victim is offered in the Mass, and employs the word hostia for victim. The use of the word sacerdotes for priests is also welcome:

     

    Sacerdotes tuos, Domine, et omnes famulos tuos vivificet divina, quam obtulimus et sumpsimus, hostia, ut, perpetua tibi caritate coniuncti, digne famulari tuae mereantur maiestati.
     
    O Lord, may the Divine Victim which we have offered and consumed, bring new life to Thy priests and all Thy servants that, united with Thee in unceasing charity, they may merit worthily to serve Thy Divine majesty.