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Author Topic: Is Francis the Pope?  (Read 4830 times)

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Offline Don Paolo

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Re: Is Francis the Pope?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 08:35:11 AM »
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    • Sources and links are provided in my book, To Deceive the Elect, Volume One. Don Curzio in the cited passage treats of a specific point of doctrine, to wit, that the common opinion of theologians is that a valid pope cannot be a formal heretic. The article is posted on his website. He has not deviated from this position; and whether or not he has changed his position as a sedeprivationist is totally irrelevant to this point of doctrine. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 08:41:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Don Paolo on November 07, 2019, 08:35:11 AM
    Sources and links are provided in my book, To Deceive the Elect, Volume One. Don Curzio in the cited passage treats of a specific point of doctrine, to wit, that the common opinion of theologians is that a valid pope cannot be a formal heretic. The article is posted on his website. He has not deviated from this position; and whether or not he has changed his position as a sedeprivationist is totally irrelevant to this point of doctrine.

    Okay, so you cannot provide any link which says that Fr. Nitoglia has written what you say he's written, and that he still believes it. Got it.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #17 on: November 07, 2019, 08:47:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Conspiracy_Factist on November 03, 2019, 07:52:38 PM
    NO

    If you're a sedeprivationist, then the answer is ...

    YES AND NO
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #18 on: November 07, 2019, 09:22:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on November 07, 2019, 04:55:39 AM
    "And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against you" -Jesus to Peter
    Another one of your phony "quotes," Jerk!

    "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18

    Consider Matthew 16:18 a fourth line of evidence against Jorge.

    If Jorge is Pope, the gates of Hell have prevailed.






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    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 09:29:39 AM »
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    • The only thing you prove by your last comment, Meg, is that your mental capacity is somewhat limited. If you wish to verify the source of Don Curzio's passage I cited, I'll provide you with a clue (as I used to do for the less intelligent students hearing my theology lectures):

     «la prima opinione o meglio l’antecedente, che è quella insegnata comunemente come la più probabile dalla maggior parte dei teologi e dei Dottori: S. Roberto Bellarmino, Francisco Suarez, Melchior Cano, Domingo Soto, Giovanni da San Tommaso, Juan de Torquemada, Louis Billot, Joachim Salaverri, A. Maria Vellico, Charles Journet (ed anche il Gaetano non citato dal Da Silveira, ma lo dimostra mons. Vittorio Mondello, ne La dottrina del Gaetano sul Romano Pontefice, Messina, Istituto Arti Grafiche di Sicilia, 1965, cap. V, pp. 163-194 e cap. VI, pp. 195-224) è che il Papa come Papa non può cadere in eresia formale, mentre può favorire l’eresia o cadere in eresia materiale come dottore privato oppure come Papa, ma solo nel magistero non definitorio, non obbligante e quindi non infallibile (cfr. A. X. Da Silveira, p. 33, nota 1; cfr. B. Gherardini, Concilio Ecuмenico Vaticano II. Un discorso da fare, Frigento, Casa Mariana Editrice, 2009; Tradidi quod et accepi. La Tradizione, vita e giovinezza della Chiesa, Frigento, Casa Mariana Editrice, 2010; Concilio Vaticano II. Il discorso mancato, Torino, Lindau, 2011; Quaecuмque dixero vobis. Parola di Dio e Tradizione a confronto con la storia e la teologia, Torino, Lindau, 2011; La Cattolica. Lineamenti d’ecclesiologia agostiniana, Torino, Lindau, 2011).»

    If that is not enough for you to find the source, Meg, I provide you with another clue, if you are still lacking the mental capacity to perform the operation.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 09:30:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Don Paolo on November 07, 2019, 09:29:39 AM
    The only thing you prove by your last comment, Meg, is that your mental capacity is somewhat limited. If you wish to verify the source of Don Curzio's passage I cited, I'll provide you with a clue (as I used to do for the less intelligent students hearing my theology lectures):

     «la prima opinione o meglio l’antecedente, che è quella insegnata comunemente come la più probabile dalla maggior parte dei teologi e dei Dottori: S. Roberto Bellarmino, Francisco Suarez, Melchior Cano, Domingo Soto, Giovanni da San Tommaso, Juan de Torquemada, Louis Billot, Joachim Salaverri, A. Maria Vellico, Charles Journet (ed anche il Gaetano non citato dal Da Silveira, ma lo dimostra mons. Vittorio Mondello, ne La dottrina del Gaetano sul Romano Pontefice, Messina, Istituto Arti Grafiche di Sicilia, 1965, cap. V, pp. 163-194 e cap. VI, pp. 195-224) è che il Papa come Papa non può cadere in eresia formale, mentre può favorire l’eresia o cadere in eresia materiale come dottore privato oppure come Papa, ma solo nel magistero non definitorio, non obbligante e quindi non infallibile (cfr. A. X. Da Silveira, p. 33, nota 1; cfr. B. Gherardini, Concilio Ecuмenico Vaticano II. Un discorso da fare, Frigento, Casa Mariana Editrice, 2009; Tradidi quod et accepi. La Tradizione, vita e giovinezza della Chiesa, Frigento, Casa Mariana Editrice, 2010; Concilio Vaticano II. Il discorso mancato, Torino, Lindau, 2011; Quaecuмque dixero vobis. Parola di Dio e Tradizione a confronto con la storia e la teologia, Torino, Lindau, 2011; La Cattolica. Lineamenti d’ecclesiologia agostiniana, Torino, Lindau, 2011).»

    If that is not enough for you to find the source, Meg, I provide you with another clue, if you are still lacking the mental capacity to perform the operation.
    :applause:
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 09:48:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Don Paolo on November 07, 2019, 09:29:39 AM
    The only thing you prove by your last comment, Meg, is that your mental capacity is somewhat limited. If you wish to verify the source of Don Curzio's passage I cited, I'll provide you with a clue (as I used to do for the less intelligent students hearing my theology lectures):

    Still no link. Still no proof. Hmmm…...
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 09:54:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 07, 2019, 09:48:48 AM
    Still no link. Still no proof. Hmmm…...

    Do you know how to use Google?  Just put the first line into the search box, and this comes up ...
    http://5.135.223.179/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=333290:la-questione-del-papa-eretico&catid=83:free&Itemid=100021
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 11:19:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 07, 2019, 09:48:48 AM
    Still no link. Still no proof. Hmmm…...
    What a lazy Behar! The Behar needs to be spoon fed.
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    Offline Endoplasmic Reticulum

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 12:16:38 PM »
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    • Nope. Neither is Ratzo.

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    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #25 on: November 07, 2019, 12:58:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: cath4ever on November 07, 2019, 07:36:20 AM
    That is not an accurate quote. The Douay-Rheims (and every other Bible I know of) says "shall not prevail against it", meaning the Church herself, not St. Peter himself in this case.
    Leave it to pooch to misquote Scripture :sleep:
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    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Prevail against whodat?/Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #26 on: December 27, 2019, 09:00:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: poche, msg674301, on November 07, 2019, 04:55:39

    "And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against you"
    --Jesus to Peter
    (The quote above is from a posting that's no longer viewable, apparently having been later deleted by a CathInfo  moderator, so I'm unable to provide a valid link.)

    Quote from: cath4ever on November 07, 2019, 07:36:20 AM

    That is not an accurate quote.  The Douay-Rheims (and every other Bible I know of) says "shall not prevail against it", meaning the Church herself, not St. Peter himself in this case.

    Ah, yes: Here we go again in CathInfo, arguing the wording of the Bible without any reference to the original Latin!  Actually, what the Vulgate says in Latin is the equivalent of English "her":

    Quote from: Matthew the Evangelist 16:18 Vulgate Bible

    [18] Et ego dico tibi, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam, et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam. [*]

    "Ecclesi·am, -ae" is plainly feminine, classically meaning an "assembly of the people", borrowed as a straightforward transliteration from the comparable Greek (where the word also seems to be feminine).  Thus the unemphatic demonstrative feminine pronoun e·a, -ius (e·am being its accusative-case) above, meaning "her".

    The Rheims translators made an understandable concession to English and its natural gender, in which a "church" is a "thing", so that readers will indeed see the neuter pronoun "it":

    Quote from: Matthew the Evangelist 16:18 Rheims Testament

    [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [*]

    That aside, it seems to me that there's no compelling reason why the Rheims translators couldn't have used the feminine pronoun in English: Weren't the Catholic faithful of the time accustomed to the phrase "our Holy Mother the Church"?

    -------
    Note [*]:
    <http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=[Matthew]&ch=16&l=18-#x>.
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    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #27 on: December 28, 2019, 12:29:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2019, 08:47:45 AM
    If you're a sedeprivationist, then the answer is ...

    YES AND NO
    At the end of the day a non catholic can not be head of the Catholic Church , when others ridicule the sede position (not you) we must point this out, that they believe someone who doesn’t profess the Catholic faith is their pope
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #28 on: December 28, 2019, 12:32:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: sedevacantist3 on December 28, 2019, 12:29:12 PM
    At the end of the day a non catholic can not be head of the Catholic Church , ...

    But that's just one position, the Bellarmine position (unless you're Salza or Siscoe).  Other theories hold that a non-Catholic (aka heretic) must be removed from office by the Church, and the sedeprivationist thesis that he formally ceases to be pope but then must be removed materially.  This is an oversimplification.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Is Francis the Pope?
    « Reply #29 on: December 28, 2019, 04:36:27 PM »
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    • Question is, was this pope, ordained even as a priest?  We know the sacrament of Holy Orders of the New Order does not confer the sacrament.
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