Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Luker on October 08, 2013, 03:01:37 PM
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I have read with interest the last few threads on sedevacantism. There have been quite a few excellent and well thought out posts. For anyone who took the time to type out those long posts you have my, and I am sure many other members thanks!
But in reading through the arguments back and forth one point that was being glossed over was whether or not Francis is a public heretic. I thought this question was sufficiently important for a thread of its own.
I will start out with my my own $0.02. Yes, his statement " I believe in God, but not a Catholic God (sic)..." is in my opinion unreconcilable. I can personally think of no way to reconcile this statement with anthing resembling orthodoxy. Nor have I heard a good explanation yet attempting to do so. Furthermore Francis himself (or the Vatican) have offered no explanation or retraction. As far as I am concerned, this statement stands.
I am on my phone so I won't attempt to add any of the other numerous statements he has made in public that look at the very least doubtfully orthodox.
So does anyone want to comment for or against this question, is Francis a public heretic?
Luke
Edited for typos.
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From the most recent interview, I happen to think the "proselytism is nonsense" quote to be heretical. It's 100% Vatican II, but still heretical.
The other heresy which we have seen with the last 3 claimants is the taking part in non-Catholic services. Also, 100% Vatican II, but still heretical.
I could come with more too, but those are the ones that come to mind first.
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I believe he is a pertinacious (knowingly trashing the known teachings of the Church with reckless abandon, including the Angelic Doctor), manifest (unhidden), public (on record for the world to see) heretic - and I suspect he was long before he was "elected," therefore making him ineligible for the Papacy, the highest office on earth.
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(1) By saying that he does not believe in a Catholic God, but in God is Pope Francis saying that universalism is avenue of salvation offered by Our Lord with Catholicism being one of many different choices? Is that what Pope Francis meant by his "off the cuff" remark? If so, would that count as heresy?
(2) Is Pope Francis saying that as long as you are on your best behavior, it really doesn't matter what or if any religion you practice? If that is what he meant, would that be considered heresy?
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(1) By saying that he does not believe in a Catholic God, but in God is Pope Francis saying that universalism is avenue of salvation offered by Our Lord with Catholicism being one of many different choices? Is that what Pope Francis meant by his "off the cuff" remark? If so, would that count as heresy?
(2) Is Pope Francis saying that as long as you are on your best behavior, it really doesn't matter what or if any religion you practice? If that is what he meant, would that be considered heresy?
I think it was just another example of false ecuŠ¼enism. "I believe we all worship the same God!"
I happen to think the worst part of that quote was when he made a distinction between God and Jesus when he said he believed in God and that Jesus was his teacher.
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Besides the public heresy issue, which yes, from what I know about him during his time in Argentina, I don't believe he was a Catholic, or that he was a legit candidate for election...
The other thing that concerns me is that he has no uniformity with past popes, he isn't even pretending. I'm not sure that he even is making a claim to be Vicar of Christ, pope, successor to St. Peter, etc. as it is defined by the Church and he isn't even pretending to be pope in any sort of continuity with History itself.
If I was no longer a Catholic or had I given up my faith, shudder to think, I'd behave exactly like Bergoglio. He is in a place of social, worldly honor and he enjoys it, the Catholic part is an inconvenience to him.
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Manifest heretic, yes. The Church uses the word "manifest" = public, out in the open and expects others to think in the same manner. yes his is a heretic before he was nominated. Therefore he is not a pope by Church definition.
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If publicly stating that....
1) There is no Catholic God
2) Atheists sin when they don't follow their conscience
3) Our Lady and the Church are comparable in all ways... they both have faults
4) The Good is subject to each persons individual conscience, and that we must work to achieve what we conceive to be good
5) Christ became incarnate to instill a feeling of brotherhood among all men
6) Converting souls to Christ is (solemn) nonsense
And publicly participating religious services with non-Catholic
....Isn't heresy, than there is no such thing as a heretic.
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Besides the public heresy issue, which yes, from what I know about him during his time in Argentina, I don't believe he was a Catholic, or that he was a legit candidate for election...
The other thing that concerns me is that he has no uniformity with past popes, he isn't even pretending. I'm not sure that he even is making a claim to be Vicar of Christ, pope, successor to St. Peter, etc. as it is defined by the Church and he isn't even pretending to be pope in any sort of continuity with History itself.
If I was no longer a Catholic or had I given up my faith, shudder to think, I'd behave exactly like Bergoglio. He is in a place of social, worldly honor and he enjoys it, the Catholic part is an inconvenience to him.
When it comes to keeping trads in line and making sure who hop in line with the rest of the new order, his authority seems to come out.
Otherwise... he's like a stoned lifeguard talking to the girls while everybody else drowns and gets eaten by sharks 'n stuff.
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Anyone who believes that Francis is not a public heretic want to take a crack at defending his latest statements? I promise to sweeten the pot with a thumbs up even if the argument isn't the most convincing :smile: this is definitely "A for effort" territory. While I am sliding rather definitely into the sedevacanist theological opinion as an (at least partial) explanation of the current crisis, I would still honestly like to read some reasonable defenses of Francis and his statements especially the one regarding "I believe in God, but not a Catholic God".
I also wanted to ask Charlemagne from which encyclical was that quote he had from St Pius X about how we must treat/act toward the pope? I read it over many times, and I'm not gonna lie, it gnawed incessantly at me since I could in no way, shape or form, find a way to regard Francis in that light... I guess that was the point of posting it! Sedevacantism for me is proving to be nothing more than the sad realization that I simply am not in communion (full, partial, or otherwise) with the man regarded by most of the world as the pope. I'm not sure what that says about me, but one of us is definitely not a Catholic. What I have learned about the faith in no way meshes with what Francis tells the world about his faith (or lack thereof). In my defense the only thing I can offer is that it is my fervent and explicit desire to in every and all things believe in, and do the things I am commanded to by the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. If thats not enough, well, I can always work on my ignorance it is probably pretty close to invincible :laugh1:
Luke
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Anyone who believes that Francis is not a public heretic want to take a crack at defending his latest statements?
If he is not a heretic in real life, then, he "must play one on TV."