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Author Topic: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?  (Read 2740 times)

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Offline rosarytrad

Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2024, 09:02:43 AM »
JJoseph, here is a condemned proposition you should read several times over. It's taken from the Syllabus of Errors.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

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Offline JJoseph

Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2024, 09:02:59 AM »
"In August of 1917 Our Lady told the children, "pray much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifices for them." As to the kinds of sacrifices Our Lady was asking, she revealed to Sr. Lucia on one occasion: "The good Lord is allowing Himself to be appeased . . . but He Himself complains most bitterly and sorrowfully about the small number of souls in His grace who are willing to renounce whatever the observance of His laws requires of them."


https://www.rosary-center.org/fatimams.htm

It's not a waste of time because it pertains to the Salvation of Souls, Rosary Trad. FE does not and I leave that henceforth for those who want to discuss it; I'm not interested in a protracted debate on that. But regarding this issue, beside what Our Lady said above, which seems to imply, we can maximize the Number of Souls saved by sufficient prayers and sacrifices, it is critically important to the Salvation of Souls, which is the Church's Supreme Law. It may be currently that only 30% of Souls are destined for Heaven but, if people pray enough, and sacrifice enough, and work enough, that number could be increased to 40% or 50%. Also, as a Thomist, I believe in intrinsically Efficacious Grace, and not merely sufficient grace. Efficacious Grace for a sinner's conversion, which will infallibly ensure they convert, can be merited by the prayers of others. I think OLOF's words suggest many can be saved who otherwise would be lost if enough pray and sacrifice for them.
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Offline JJoseph

Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2024, 09:06:36 AM »
Quote from: rosarytrad on May 17, 2024, 09:02:43 AM
JJoseph, here is a condemned proposition you should read several times over. It's taken from the Syllabus of Errors.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

Souls who have culpably refused Christ or His Church are "not at all in the true Church of Christ". Souls in invincible ignorance, if they have Baptism of Desire (Perfect Contrition), as the same Bl. Pope Pius IX taught in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, and Pope St. Pius X explain in his Catechism, are not entirely outside the Church but are united to Her Soul. They will be fully incorporated into the Church in the hour of death, if they persevere in loving God as best they can. This is all taught in the Catechism and is nothing new - unless you reject that Catechism of course.
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Offline JJoseph

Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2024, 09:08:27 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 17, 2024, 08:58:33 AM
OK, so?  That's essentially different from apocatastasis, the number of the saved.  There was this sense among the philosophical types that there might be something incongruous about evil continuing to exist for eternity, so that it would either be turned to good or destroyed at some point, so that there would only be good lasting for eternity.  Problem with it is that God does not forcibly convert those who use their free will to reject and oppose God.  Everyone who goes to Hell goes there of his own free will and free choice.  As St. Augustine explained, evil does not exist, and so anything that remains for eternity is in fact good, even if it falls short of the greater good intended by God for it.  "Evil", which is non-existent and merely a privation of the good, does not actually "exist" forever.
Some would call it a partial apocatastasis. I am personally of the view, after long thought, prayer, research and study into this matter, that greater than 50% of the human race will be saved. The CE likewise argues for this conclusion when it says: "When one hears the rigorists, one is tempted to repeat Dieringer's bitter remark: "Can it be that the Church actually exists in order to people hell?" The truth is that neither the one nor the other can be proved from Scripture or Tradition (cf. Heinrich-Gutberlet, "Dogmat. Theologie", Mainz, 1897, VIII, 363 sq.). But supplementing these two sources by arguments drawn from reason we may safely defend as probable the opinion that the majority of Christians, especially of Catholics, will be saved. If we add to this relative number the overwhelming majority of non-Christians (Jєωs, Mahommedans, heathens), then Gener* ("Theol. dogmat. scholast.", Rome, 1767, II, 242 sq.) is probably right when he assumes the salvation of half of the human race, lest "it should be said to the shame and offence of the Divine majesty and clemency that the [future] Kingdom of Satan is larger than the Kingdom of Christ" (cf. W. Schneider, "Das andere Leben", 9th ed., Paderborn, 1908, 476 sq.)."
From: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
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Offline Emilio

Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2024, 09:19:41 AM »
Denzinger 211. Liber Adversus Origen. Can. 9. If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons or wicked men is temporary, and that at some point it will end, or that the reintegration of demons or wicked men will happen, let him be anathema.

Denzinger 223. II Constantinople, can. 11. If someone does not anathematize [···] Origen, along with their wicked writings, an all heretics, condemned by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church [···] and all who think or thought like the aforementioned heretics, [···] let that one be anathema.

Denzinger 271. Lateran Council. Can. 18. Basically, the same as D223

I guess is one of those things like millennialism, where many of the Early Fathers held it but was latter condemned.

Quote from: JJoseph on May 17, 2024, 08:06:45 AM
like St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and likely St. Gregory nαzιanzen as well, as the CE explains.
Let's see what my patrology book says...

St. Clement of Alexandria: «Clement defends, like Plato, that divine punisment has no other objective that purifying. Plato wrote: "He who bears a punishment, admits some benefit". However, Clement does not explicitly apply this expression to hell.»

St. Jerome: «Pope Damasus transfered him from Antioch to Constantinople: here he was taught by St Gregory nαzιanzen, and became thrilled by Origen's exegetic method. At this time (381) he had a friendly relationship with St. Gregory of Nyssa»
    «Now an adversary of Origen, he translated in 395 the four books De principiis to fight his now enemy Rufinus» Mentions another 2 books against origenism.
    «Like Ambrosius, Jerome teaches that all who deny God (negantes et impii) will suffer the eternal punishment of hell; but not christians, even if they are "peccatores", because the Judgement Day this ones will get a mercifull sentence.»

St. Gregory nαzιanzen: «Kids are innocent, and those who died without baptism wont suffer the punisments of hell, but they also wont enjoy Beatitude»

And for St. Gregory of Nyssa, nothing to add to what you posted.

So St. Jerome, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory nαzιanzen all held the opinion of Origen, that was later condemned, and two of them ended up rejecting it at least partially. And St. Clement might as well be talking about purgatory.
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