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Author Topic: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?  (Read 2739 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2024, 08:44:02 AM »
So you're suggesting to me that I should entertain good hope that all baptized Christians go to heaven? Even non-Catholics?


I downvoted it because what you've posted is heretical.

Certainly the downthumb is justified ... for heresy.  I'm glad that you chimed in.  I too don't care for anonymous hit-and-run downthumbing without some explanation.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2024, 08:47:08 AM »
Downthumber should probably explain himself or herself, with authorities and citations of their own. St. Augustine is one of those who argued strongly against Apocatastasis; yet he nevertheless regarded those who held views that a great many (even if not absolutely all) would attain Salvation (and the Bible too suggests they finally will in Rev 7:9, "a great multitude that no man could number" in Heaven) as "Compassionate Christians". He argues against it, and he makes the now familiar distinction between venial sin and mortal sin, and Purgatory and Hell, because of it. But many Early Christians held variants of Apocatastasis, including those whose sanctity cannot be doubted, like St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and likely St. Gregory nαzιanzen as well, as the CE explains.

These "variants," as you refer to them, are effectively early articulations of Purgatory, not the heretical version where no one is damned for eternity.  So the "variation" consists precisely in what renders one version (Origen's) heretical but not the "variants" held by these Fathers.  It's dishonest to reduce them as variants of the same principle, since they differ essentially.

There was early articulation taking place among the Fathers of notions such as venial vs. mortal sin, and of Purgatory.


Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2024, 08:52:56 AM »
There is dispute about what was condemned at the 5th Ecuмenical Council. Origen held various views that were incorrect like the pre-existence of the soul: "Many heteroclite views became associated with Origen, and the 15 anathemas against him attributed to the Second Council of Constantinople condemned a form of apocatastasis, along with the pre-existence of the soul, animism, a heterodox Christology, and a denial of real and lasting resurrection of the body. Some authorities believe that the anathemas belong to an earlier local synod.[33][34][35] ... Popes Vigilius, Pelagius I (556–61), Pelagius II (579–90), and Gregory the Great (590–604) were aware only that the Fifth Council specifically dealt with the Three Chapters, and they neither mentioned Origenism or Universalism and nor spoke as if they knew of its condemnation even though Gregory the Great was opposed to the belief of universalism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christian_universalism#6th_century_%E2%80%93_Ecuмenical_condemnation_of_universalism?

But regardless, has the Church ever pronounced definitely on what number will be saved or won't be? In theory, one could hold anything between 1% of humanity will be saved, to 99% of humanity will be saved, even if apocatastasis was in fact condemned. But the above shows those canons were probably from an earlier local Synod, and speak only of certain Origenist theories, not all forms of apocatastasis, certainly not those of St. Gregory of Nyssa, for e.g. whom Ecuмenical Council 7 called "The Father of Fathers: "Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335/40–395) is often regarded as the most speculative and mystical thinker of the Greek Fathers.[1] Centuries after his death, the Seventh Ecuмenical Council (787) rendered Nyssen as the “father of fathers,”" https://credomag.com/2020/07/gregory-of-nyssa-the-father-of-fathers/

Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2024, 08:55:55 AM »
JJoseph, you think FE is a waste of time. This topic is an even bigger waste of time.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is Apocatastasis a legitimate Catholic position/a possible hope?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2024, 08:58:33 AM »
But regardless, has the Church ever pronounced definitely on what number will be saved or won't be? In theory, one could hold anything between 1% of humanity will be saved, to 99% of humanity will be saved, even if apocatastasis was in fact condemned.

OK, so?  That's essentially different from apocatastasis, the number of the saved.  There was this sense among the philosophical types that there might be something incongruous about evil continuing to exist for eternity, so that it would either be turned to good or destroyed at some point, so that there would only be good lasting for eternity.  Problem with it is that God does not forcibly convert those who use their free will to reject and oppose God.  Everyone who goes to Hell goes there of his own free will and free choice.  As St. Augustine explained, evil does not exist, and so anything that remains for eternity is in fact good, even if it falls short of the greater good intended by God for it.  "Evil", which is non-existent and merely a privation of the good, does not actually "exist" forever.