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Author Topic: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?  (Read 282065 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
« Reply #105 on: Yesterday at 04:51:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 05, 2025, 02:53:11 PM
    :confused: isn't ^ this what you have been doing your whole life?
    No, all I've been doing is striving to live according to the traditional Catholic faith, knowing I must avoid everything that contradicts that faith.   
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 05:23:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 05, 2025, 03:36:06 PM
    1) The Sedes would rally around that true Pope because he will have confirmed what they already believe.

    2) The Sedes would submit themselves to the true Pope's judgment in the matter because they know that a true Pope is guided by Jesus Christ. Again, you said this man would be a "true Pope." Let's say there was a miraculous sign that confirmed his status as such. If a Sede did not submit to him, they would betray their own principles.
    Thank you, good answer.

    Quote

    Again, Sedevacantism is nothing more than an opinion that tries to make sense of the Crisis. It is not a dogma. But it is not formally inconsistent with Catholic dogma. The version of R&R that claims that the true Popes can be "heretics" while continuing to be true Popes is formally inconsistent with Catholic dogma.
    Yes, sedeism is nothing more than an opinion, the problem with that opinion is that for most who've convinced themselves that their opinion is fact, it is no longer an opinion, it becomes a binding dogma of the Church wherein all those who do not agree with that dogma are low life heretics.
     
    There are valid arguments re: heretics can/cannot be popes on both sides. In one of his talks, Fr. Hesse makes some sense of it from a non-sede point of view, but in the end, whether they're popes or not, there. is. nothing. anyone. can. do. about. it - anymore than anyone can make the sun shine on a cloudy day. Which, like St. Francis in the OP, is why non-sedes do not dwell on the idea, and like St. Francis in the OP, are content to leave the matter up to the Church, in her own good time. 

    Then there's the dogma stating "that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
    Referencing, as I have already done in this thread, St. Thomas More's last words, non-sedes absolutely, positively and unequivocally achieve this even if the pope is a lying, modernist, no good thieving apostate, murderer, adulterer, commie heretic.

    But for sedes whose opinion had morphed into dogmatic certainty, the reality is that they can only rely on their opinion/conclusion to be right. For non-sedes, the price is too high, that's too much to risk on our opinion. Leave it up to the Church.   
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #107 on: Yesterday at 09:42:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 04:49:17 AM
    Your hypothetical is untenable because without condemning V2 there is no restoration at all. 
    :confused:

    Quote from: Stubborn on December 05, 2025, 02:39:46 PM
    So what you're saying is that regardless of him restoring the Church back to all things pre-V2, sedes will remain sede even when a "true pope" is sitting in the Chair because he did not do what they think must be done. Do you not see the folly here? You are dictating to a "true pope" what popes must and must not do, or what they can and cannot do.
    So we agree that a future "true Pope" would have to condemn V2? 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #108 on: Yesterday at 02:30:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 09:42:28 AM
    :confused:
    So we agree that a future "true Pope" would have to condemn V2?
    Only if he is going to restore the Church.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #109 on: Yesterday at 02:50:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 02:30:13 PM
    Only if he is going to restore the Church.
    OK, I think I understand you. 

    You are saying:

    No matter what, whoever the Cardinals say is Pope is Pope. 

    For you Stubborn, he will always be the Pope no matter what.

    If he decides to keep Vatican II - he is a true pope.
    If he decides to condemn it so he can "restore" the Church - he is a true Pope.
    If he renounces every dogma of the Catholic Faith openly and in writing - he is still a true Pope. 

    For you, what matters most is that you are consistent, and stubbornly so I might add. :laugh1:

    Your position is, come hell or high water, they are true Popes no matter what.

    That is...

    Unless the Cardinals issue a special declaration stating that he had already lost the papacy due to his heresy, you Stubborn will "play it safe".

    Did I understand correctly?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #110 on: Today at 10:20:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 02:50:41 PM
    OK, I think I understand you.

    You are saying:

    No matter what, whoever the Cardinals say is Pope is Pope.
    No, I already said like St. Francis, I am content to leave it up to the Church. If the "true pope" "dethrones" the conciliar popes, I would accept it, why wouldn't I? -  why wouldn't anyone for that matter? IF he never "dethroned" them, I would accept that as well, why wouldn't I? - I don't see why anyone wouldn't.

    Even if not likely, it is at least possible to condemn everything V2 without dethroning the (now dead) conciliar popes. Exsurge Domine comes to mind, where there was a blanket condemnation of errors and Luther was named....

    Quote
    Exsurge Domine
    In virtue of our pastoral office committed to us by the divine favor we can under no circuмstances tolerate or overlook any longer the pernicious poison of the above errors without disgrace to the Christian religion and injury to orthodox faith. Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present docuмent; their substance is as follows:
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    and so on.

    IOW, the errors can be condemned and the popes can even be named as the authors - without declaring them to have been non-popes.

    What matters is the heresies and errors in the teachings, because teachings can live on and on and must be effectively "killed" no matter who taught them. Unlike you, I do not think dethroning is at all necessary, what is necessary is condemning the errors. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #111 on: Today at 12:26:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 05:23:19 AM
    Thank you, good answer.
    Yes, sedeism is nothing more than an opinion, the problem with that opinion is that for most who've convinced themselves that their opinion is fact, it is no longer an opinion, it becomes a binding dogma of the Church wherein all those who do not agree with that dogma are low life heretics.
     
    There are valid arguments re: heretics can/cannot be popes on both sides. In one of his talks, Fr. Hesse makes some sense of it from a non-sede point of view, but in the end, whether they're popes or not, there. is. nothing. anyone. can. do. about. it - anymore than anyone can make the sun shine on a cloudy day. Which, like St. Francis in the OP, is why non-sedes do not dwell on the idea, and like St. Francis in the OP, are content to leave the matter up to the Church, in her own good time. 

    Then there's the dogma stating "that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
    Referencing, as I have already done in this thread, St. Thomas More's last words, non-sedes absolutely, positively and unequivocally achieve this even if the pope is a lying, modernist, no good thieving apostate, murderer, adulterer, commie heretic.

    But for sedes whose opinion had morphed into dogmatic certainty, the reality is that they can only rely on their opinion/conclusion to be right. For non-sedes, the price is too high, that's too much to risk on our opinion. Leave it up to the Church. 

    Here are the options we are discussing:

    Sede Lapsa (dogmatic R&R) = the See is legitimately occupied AND the true Pope is a heretic = Old Catholic Heresy

    Sede Vacante = the See is illegitimately occupied AND the usurper is a heretic = Roman Catholic

    Sede Impedita = the See is legitimately occupied BUT the true Pope is prevented from acting = Roman Catholic


    This is a good article that explains the Roman Catholic Options:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2024/11/when-shepherd-is-struck-sedevacantist-disunity/

    "As we have seen, such possible contingencies include sede impedita as well as an extended period of sede vacante. They manifestly do not include what we might call sede lapsa, the idea that heresy and error can come from the Chair of Truth. (This idea of a “Holy See gone bad” is held by a great many “traditional Catholics” today who have chosen to acknowledge the Vatican II popes as true Popes yet resisting any exercise of these claimants’ office judged to be contrary to pre-Vatican II teaching or practice.)"
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    Online Freind

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #112 on: Today at 05:46:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 12:26:43 PM
    Here are the options we are discussing:

    Sede Lapsa (dogmatic R&R) = the See is legitimately occupied AND the true Pope is a heretic = Old Catholic Heresy

    Sede Vacante = the See is illegitimately occupied AND the usurper is a heretic = Roman Catholic

    Sede Impedita = the See is legitimately occupied BUT the true Pope is prevented from acting = Roman Catholic


    This is a good article that explains the Roman Catholic Options:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2024/11/when-shepherd-is-struck-sedevacantist-disunity/

    "As we have seen, such possible contingencies include sede impedita as well as an extended period of sede vacante. They manifestly do not include what we might call sede lapsa, the idea that heresy and error can come from the Chair of Truth. (This idea of a “Holy See gone bad” is held by a great many “traditional Catholics” today who have chosen to acknowledge the Vatican II popes as true Popes yet resisting any exercise of these claimants’ office judged to be contrary to pre-Vatican II teaching or practice.)"

    The terms sede vacante, sede impedita and sede plena are in canon law.

    The term "sede lapsa" is not. It shouldn't be used.

    Those who use it are only introducing an occasion for more confusion.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #113 on: Today at 06:32:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 05:46:44 PM
    The terms sede vacante, sede impedita and sede plena are in canon law.

    The term "sede lapsa" is not. It shouldn't be used.

    Those who use it are only introducing an occasion for more confusion.

    It is not used in Canon Law because it is not Catholic. It is a descriptive term for the heretical position staked out by the Dogmatic R&R adherents. 
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    Online Freind

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #114 on: Today at 06:44:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 06:32:40 PM
    It is not used in Canon Law because it is not Catholic. It is a descriptive term for the heretical position staked out by the Dogmatic R&R adherents.

    I agree. It is not "Catholic" per se, but it is human Latin the Church wouldn't condemn being used.....but I am saying it shouldn't be implicitly put on a par with terms that truly are in canon law.
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