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Author Topic: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?  (Read 188527 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
« Reply #90 on: Today at 09:43:38 AM »
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  • This, obviously, is a lie. Simple. Purposely or not, he misused his supreme authority in that the faithful are told they must go along with whatever is in the docuмents.

    1st, Both V2 popes already said there was no infallibility at V2. This is true, accept it.

    He never said it wasn't infallible, he said, "given the pastoral character of the Council, it avoided pronouncing in an extraordinary way dogmas endowed with the hallmark of infallibility."


    He said, "they avoided using that mechanism of extraordinary pronouncements of dogmas."

    He did not say, that it was not infallible in any sense.

    He literally follows with, "This ordinary and so manifestly authentic magisterium must be accepted docilely and sincerely by all the faithful." 

    This shows his intent was to bind the consciences of he faithful because he is COMMANDING that it "MUST BE ACCEPTED" with docility and sincerity. 

    Catholics are never free to disregard Dogmatic Constitutions of a true General Council. 

    If Paul VI was Pope, Catholics are not free to impugn his supreme ordinary magisterial teaching. You decide that he "misused his supreme authority" to teach error. That is calling "judging the Pope". 

    You have decided he is wrong, therefore you think you are free to dissent. That is the classic Old Catholic position in a nutshell.

    You cannot relegate the "Pope Question" to the dust bin as if we could somehow all get along if it wasn't for that pesky "sedeism".

    How you think of the papacy and who you think is the Pope during this time, is actually of vital importance to one's salvation.  




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #91 on: Today at 10:50:21 AM »
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  • He never said it wasn't infallible, he said, "given the pastoral character of the Council, it avoided pronouncing in an extraordinary way dogmas endowed with the hallmark of infallibility."


    He said, "they avoided using that mechanism of extraordinary pronouncements of dogmas."

    He did not say, that it was not infallible in any sense.

    He literally follows with, "This ordinary and so manifestly authentic magisterium must be accepted docilely and sincerely by all the faithful."

    This shows his intent was to bind the consciences of he faithful because he is COMMANDING that it "MUST BE ACCEPTED" with docility and sincerity.
    OF COURSE the intent was to bind the faithful - to heresies and lies. God hates heresies and lies, and He would hate it if we bound ourselves to those heresies and lies. It does not matter who the heresies came from or who the authority was that commanded us to accept them, we cannot do it because God said no. Simple.

    Quote
    Catholics are never free to disregard Dogmatic Constitutions of a true General Council.

    If Paul VI was Pope, Catholics are not free to impugn his supreme ordinary magisterial teaching. You decide that he "misused his supreme authority" to teach error. That is calling "judging the Pope".

    You have decided he is wrong, therefore you think you are free to dissent. That is the classic Old Catholic position in a nutshell.

    You cannot relegate the "Pope Question" to the dust bin as if we could somehow all get along if it wasn't for that pesky "sedeism".

    How you think of the papacy and who you think is the Pope during this time, is actually of vital importance to one's salvation. 
    That's right, we cannot disregard dogmatic constitutions that actually are dogmatic constitutions. Are you going to say that you actually believe V2 produced true dogmatic constitutions? No, you're saying the Holy Ghost would prevent a "true pope" from producing the heretical docuмents of V2. Well, you are wrong. The heretical V2 docuмents proves unequivocally that you are wrong. But you and all sedes refuse to see it this way, instead, you turn papal infallibility into papal impeccability, which in turn means the only way you get out of it is by deciding that popes are not popes, then insist there is no other possible reason and those who know better and disagree are low down heretics.

    2 questions:

    1) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" came out and declared the conciliar popes were never popes?

    2) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" NEVER mentioned anything at all about the conciliar popes?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #92 on: Today at 01:26:25 PM »
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  • I corrected what I said: "because I honestly do not care if they're popes, at least not as much as you do." Which is to say that, while sedes insist on deciding their status, I do not care to. So what?

    2 questions:

    1) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" came out and declared the conciliar popes were never popes?

    2) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" NEVER mentioned anything at all about the conciliar popes?

    You say you don't care to decide the status of the Popes. But that is not true. You are constantly calling various papal claimants "heretics." And you then call those "heretics" the "Pope." That is untenable according to Catholic dogma.

    On the one hand, if you want to call the papal claimant a "heretic," then you must accept that he either was never "the Pope" or that he lost his office ipso facto for manifest heresy. Those are the only two avenues left open to you in Catholic theology. 

    On the other hand, if you want to say that the papal claimant is not a "heretic" but that he was deceived or confused or in error on lesser matters or that his pen was used without his consent, etc., and, because of these factual/historical anomalies, he remained "the Pope" while the Crisis raged around him, that would be a different matter altogether. The criteria to determine the truth of that claim are factual/historical in nature not propositional/doctrinal.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #93 on: Today at 01:52:49 PM »
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  • 1) On the one hand, if you want to call the papal claimant a "heretic," then you must accept that he either was never "the Pope" or that he lost his office ipso facto for manifest heresy. Those are the only two avenues left open to you in Catholic theology.

    2) On the other hand, if you want to say that the papal claimant is not a "heretic" but that he was deceived or confused or in error on lesser matters or that his pen was used without his consent, etc., and, because of these factual/historical anomalies, he remained "the Pope" while the Crisis raged around him, that would be a different matter altogether. The criteria to determine the truth of that claim are factual/historical in nature not propositional/doctrinal.
    I already , made this distinction to him (between 1&2 above) here:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/una-cuм-question-an-ai-bug-or-catholic-teaching/15/

    He would rather spout off and say "yes they are heretics"., but then he maintains that they must still be true Popes (contradiction)

    He either;

    1) Thinks they are indeed manifest, public, heretics, but this in no way affects their claim to the papacy (heretical)

    or,

    2) He lacks the moral certainty that they are indeed manifest, public heretics and thinks of them as "erring bad-dad Popes". (honest mistake).

    I think when Stubborn says they are heretics, he really doesn't believe that they are in the strict legal sense, it is just more a figure of speech with him i.e, "I have been a trade my whole life, of course they are heretics!"


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #94 on: Today at 01:59:56 PM »
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  • That's right, we cannot disregard dogmatic constitutions that actually are dogmatic constitutions. Are you going to say that you actually believe V2 produced true dogmatic constitutions? No, you're saying the Holy Ghost would prevent a "true pope" from producing the heretical docuмents of V2. Well, you are wrong. The heretical V2 docuмents proves unequivocally that you are wrong. 
    :confused: The existence of the docuмents prove nothing of what you allege.
    They only "prove" that what appeared to be a General Council headed by the Pope created docuмents that contain heresy and therefore prove themselves to be manifestly heretical by signing and implementing those false teachings.

    I really don't think you understand the concept of "manifesting" heresy publicly and this is at the heart of your error/Old Catholic heresy.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #95 on: Today at 02:04:59 PM »
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  • You say you don't care to decide the status of the Popes. But that is not true. You are constantly calling various papal claimants "heretics." And you then call those "heretics" the "Pope." That is untenable according to Catholic dogma.

    On the one hand, if you want to call the papal claimant a "heretic," then you must accept that he either was never "the Pope" or that he lost his office ipso facto for manifest heresy. Those are the only two avenues left open to you in Catholic theology.

    On the other hand, if you want to say that the papal claimant is not a "heretic" but that he was deceived or confused or in error on lesser matters or that his pen was used without his consent, etc., and, because of these factual/historical anomalies, he remained "the Pope" while the Crisis raged around him, that would be a different matter altogether. The criteria to determine the truth of that claim are factual/historical in nature not propositional/doctrinal.
    2 questions:

    1) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" came out and declared the conciliar popes were never popes?

    2) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" NEVER mentioned anything at all about the conciliar popes?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #96 on: Today at 02:08:05 PM »
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  • 2 questions:

    1) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" came out and declared the conciliar popes were never popes?

    2) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" NEVER mentioned anything at all about the conciliar popes?
    1) I don't think they would do anything different - it would just be a validation of what they were already morally (or absolutely) certain of (depending on the level of their convictions).

    2) By such an omission he would be proving himself no "true Pope" at all, because such errors would need to be officially condemned to bring the conflict to a resolution. In fact, most everyone who holds the sede position agrees that the only true sign of a true Pope back in Rome would be a repudiation of Vatican II. Well, an official condemnation of Vatican II would be an official condemnation of the "concilar popes." Error does not live in the clouds, it lives in men's minds and spreads through their false teachings. Condemning Vatican II would be to condemn them all. So, in this case, again, they would do nothing differently. They would not accept such a one as a true Pope and they would carry on.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #97 on: Today at 02:14:42 PM »
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  • I already , made this distinction to him (between 1&2 above) here:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/una-cuм-question-an-ai-bug-or-catholic-teaching/15/

    He would rather spout off and say "yes they are heretics"., but then he maintains that they must still be true Popes (contradiction)

    He either;

    1) Thinks they are indeed manifest, public, heretics, but this in no way affects their claim to the papacy (heretical)

    or,

    2) He lacks the moral certainty that they are indeed manifest, public heretics and thinks of them as "erring bad-dad Popes". (honest mistake).

    I think when Stubborn says they are heretics, he really doesn't believe that they are in the strict legal sense, it is just more a figure of speech with him i.e, "I have been a trade my whole life, of course they are heretics!"

    It's not the least but complicated.

    I have quoted Fr. Wathen who said: "We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, that is not questionable, that’s just a matter of observing what has been said, and we can judge that matter as easily as we can judge the pronouncements of a protestant minister. I mean, if a protestant minster says something that is contrary to the faith, it’s not crime or anything for us to say, “That’s heresy”. It does not matter who says it, if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy."

    It only becomes complicated for some when it's the pope who speaks heresy. 

    It is best to do like St. Francis in the OP and leave it up to the Church to decide.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #98 on: Today at 02:16:11 PM »
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  • :confused: The existence of the docuмents prove nothing of what you allege.
    They only "prove" that what appeared to be a General Council headed by the Pope created docuмents that contain heresy and therefore prove themselves to be manifestly heretical by signing and implementing those false teachings.

    I really don't think you understand the concept of "manifesting" heresy publicly and this is at the heart of your error/Old Catholic heresy.
    I understand it alright, I also accept reality.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #99 on: Today at 02:39:46 PM »
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  • 1) I don't think they would do anything different - it would just be a validation of what they were already morally (or absolutely) certain of (depending on the level of their convictions).

    2) By such an omission he would be proving himself no "true Pope" at all, because such errors would need to be officially condemned to bring the conflict to a resolution. In fact, most everyone who holds the sede position agrees that the only true sign of a true Pope back in Rome would be a repudiation of Vatican II. Well, an official condemnation of Vatican II would be an official condemnation of the "concilar popes." Error does not live in the clouds, it lives in men's minds and spreads through their false teachings. Condemning Vatican II would be to condemn them all. So, in this case, again, they would do nothing differently. They would not accept such a one as a true Pope and they would carry on.
    *You* say they need to be officially condemned, just like you say popes are not popes. But the "true pope" can choose not condemn them on purpose and for very good reasons he has that you do not have.  

    So what you're saying is that regardless of him restoring the Church back to all things pre-V2, sedes will remain sede even when a "true pope" is sitting in the Chair because he did not do what they think must be done. Do you not see the folly here? You are dictating to a "true pope" what popes must and must not do, or what they can and cannot do. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #100 on: Today at 02:49:30 PM »
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  • But the "true pope" can choose not condemn them on purpose and for very good reasons he has that you do not have.
    So, here are my questions for you;

    1) If the hypothetical "true Pope" you put forth, just takes everything back to 1961 without condemning Vatican II, you are good-2-go then?

    2) Do you not see that a "true Pope" would have to condemn those heresies otherwise they would just keep being used to promote the hetropraxy of the times?

    To not condemn them is to tacitly approve of them.

    There is no reason under heaven that could justify a true Pope approving of heresy or passing over it in silence (especially when it is on such a scale).

    Save yourself the trouble and just admit that you only think they are in "error", or when you say they are "heretics" you mean it in the loose sense not a strict legal sense.



    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #101 on: Today at 02:53:11 PM »
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  • Do you not see the folly here? You are dictating to a "true pope" what popes must and must not do, or what they can and cannot do.
    :confused: isn't ^ this what you have been doing your whole life?

    Actually, for you it is much worse I think.

    In your scenario question to me, he is only a "hypothetical true Pope." There are many factors to consider about such an alleged "true Pope", i.e., where did he come from? Where did he get his orders? Has he always been Catholic, or was he ever at one point heretical? Is he disqualified as eligible for some reason?, etc.

    But in your case, - who you think the actual Popes are - you publicly accuse of being heretics!
    You hate their heresies and have fought against them your whole life.
    But what you fail to grasp is by blasting them as heretics, you are constantly "judging the Pope".
    Do you not see the folly here?

    The Church cannot act to give an "official condemnation" at this time (or perhaps never will before the Second Coming).
    God has manifested their heresy quite publicly for all with eyes to see and/or ears to hear.
    This is so that you may understand they are not with the Church in faith and therefore are not true Popes.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #102 on: Today at 03:36:06 PM »
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  • 2 questions:

    1) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" came out and declared the conciliar popes were never popes?

    2) What would sedes do or do differently if the new "true pope" NEVER mentioned anything at all about the conciliar popes?

    1) The Sedes would rally around that true Pope because he will have confirmed what they already believe.

    2) The Sedes would submit themselves to the true Pope's judgment in the matter because they know that a true Pope is guided by Jesus Christ. Again, you said this man would be a "true Pope." Let's say there was a miraculous sign that confirmed his status as such. If a Sede did not submit to him, they would betray their own principles. 

    Again, Sedevacantism is nothing more than an opinion that tries to make sense of the Crisis. It is not a dogma. But it is not formally inconsistent with Catholic dogma. The version of R&R that claims that the true Popes can be "heretics" while continuing to be true Popes is formally inconsistent with Catholic dogma.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #103 on: Today at 04:01:02 PM »
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  • The version of R&R that claims that the true Popes can be "heretics" while continuing to be true Popes is formally inconsistent with Catholic dogma.

    There are too many in R&R that holds to this, unfortunately.