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Author Topic: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?  (Read 124864 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
« Reply #60 on: Today at 01:44:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 12:51:51 PM
    His comment must be understood as based on the premise that the actor CAN DO what Aquinas says should be done in principle.
    I think he is stressing the principle that faith is supreme, and no matter if the whole visible Church is burning around you, you cannot compromise on matters of faith. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #61 on: Today at 02:23:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 01:18:35 PM
    Sorry, so you are saying it is also "absolutely" possible for a future pope to declare St. Pius X to have been a false pope? If that happened, would you accept it as true? Because you said you are "good" with whatever the Church declares. Or is there some criteria that would need to be met for you to accept a past pope being declared a false pope as true?
    No, what makes you think that's what I'm saying? The pope is condemning all things V2 so now the Church is where it was pre-V2. What reason would the pre-V2 popes even enter the picture?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #62 on: Today at 02:26:20 PM »
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    • :facepalm: ... no, the free exercise of legitimate papal authority cannot possibly wreck the Church so badly that we must leave submission to and communion with the hierarchy in order to remain Catholics, where they effectively establish a New Religion alien to the Catholic Religion.

    It's not about receiving graces, but about receiving the office of the papacy.  You would be a wicked occult apostate, and you would receive the offices even if no graces of the office.  Of course, if you received the office, God would strike you down before you'd be allowed to corrupt the Church's teaching.

    As far as God allowing it ... well, of course God allowed the Crisis, but it does not mean he would somehow renig on the Promises of Christ for the papacy, but instead would allow it to happen in some other way.

    There's so much muddled and even non-Catholic thinking about the papacy among Trads that it's mind-boggling.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #63 on: Today at 02:28:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 01:44:58 PM
    I think he is stressing the principle that faith is supreme, and no matter if the whole visible Church is burning around you, you cannot compromise on matters of faith.

    Stop it with the "Visible Church" nonsense too.  Church is instrinsically Visible, and there's no mysterious "Invisible Church" that's somehow operating in a parallel universe, where it's still the Catholic Church while this Visible one has become non-Catholic.

    Please just stop posting, those of you who have no concept about Catholic ecclesiology, before you lose your own faith.  You're better off just devoting yourselves to the Holy Rosary or something and stop thinking about theology altogether.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #64 on: Today at 02:30:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 12:30:42 PM
    So, anyone who says that does not hold to the legitimay of the Conciliar papal claimants with the certainty of faith.  That would be like saying I believe that in the future the Church might reverse the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  If you say that, you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception with the certainty of faith.
    No, that would not be like saying I believe that in the future the Church might reverse the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Unlike the legitimacy of popes, the Immaculate Conception is a defined dogma. The legitimacy of popes is an act of the Church's administration via the cardinals voting and him accepting his election. 

    You sure come with your share of some real doozies.  

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #65 on: Today at 02:40:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 02:28:31 PM
    Stop it with the "Visible Church" nonsense too.  Church is instrinsically Visible, and there's no mysterious "Invisible Church" that's somehow operating in a parallel universe, where it's still the Catholic Church while this Visible one has become non-Catholic.
    The Church is visible in different ways, i.e., Her laity, hierarchy, doctrine, sacraments, monuments, etc. 

    You may choose to read into my statement, but I in no way advocate for the Protestant idea of the "invisible church". 

    I believe that the visibility of the Church has gone into somewhat of an "eclipse". 
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #66 on: Today at 02:43:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 02:28:31 PM
    Please just stop posting, those of you who have no concept about Catholic ecclesiology
    You are not any more qualified than anyone else here to post about these matters, and your opinion is only as valuable as the authoritative sources you can furnish to support your arguments .

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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #67 on: Today at 02:49:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 02:28:31 PM
    You're better off just devoting yourselves to the Holy Rosary or something and stop thinking about theology altogether.
    What sloppy "advice" to give to anyone!

    Prayer and study together is Catholic.

    Like it or not, with no actual theologians or true Pastors, everyone must now step up and seek the answers they need.
    You are no one to stand in their way or discourage them from doing so.
    Yes, there is a danger that one can misinterpret something - that danger is real for EVERYONE and was ALWAYS TRUE in ANY AGE!

    So, please calm down and try asking clarifying questions before you go off on one of these rants which make you look somewhat manic. 
    But we all have our foibles, so I accept your mania.
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #68 on: Today at 03:00:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 02:23:28 PM
    No, what makes you think that's what I'm saying? The pope is condemning all things V2 so now the Church is where it was pre-V2. What reason would the pre-V2 popes even enter the picture?
    It can be confusing when you evade the question and are vague

    I said:
    Quote
    I asked if you believe that there is a possibility the Conciliar popes are declared false popes in the future. You said, "absolutely". Why do you think it is absolutely possible that it could happen? Would you say the same regarding Pius X, Pius IX, Leo XIII, etc., or is there something different between them and the Conciliar popes?

    You replied:
    Quote
    You just answered why I do not think any such declaration will be made, although anything is possible


    See, this is confusing, because I'm not sure how I "answered" why you do not think any such declaration will be made, and I never even asked if you think it will happen to begin with. You said there is "absolutely" a possibility of the Conciliar popes being declared false popes by a future pope. I asked if this is because there is a difference between the pre V2 and Conciliar popes that would cause you to say that..or if you would say the same ("absolutely" a possibility) regarding any past pope at all.

    So, are you saying:

    A) That the V2 popes differ in such a way from the pre-V2 popes that there is "absolutely" a possibility of them being declared false popes in the future, and not the pre-V2 popes? You said you would be "cool" with whatever the Church declares regarding the Conciliar popes

    OR

    B) That there is "absolutely" a possibility of a future pope declaring any past pope at all a false pope? Would you also be "cool" with this, or just whatever the Church declares regarding the Conciliar popes?





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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #69 on: Today at 03:16:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 03:00:42 PM
    See, this is confusing, because I'm not sure how I "answered" why you do not think any such declaration will be made, and I never even asked if you think it will happen to begin with. You said there is "absolutely" a possibility of the Conciliar popes being declared false popes by a future pope. I asked if this is because there is a difference between the pre V2 and Conciliar popes that would cause you to say that..or if you would say the same ("absolutely" a possibility) regarding any past pope at all.
    You answered your own question because you are right, there is nothing to stop one pope from declaring whichever previous popes he wants to have not been popes. I mean, what is there to stop him? Nothing.

    Yet, if he declared only the conciliar heretic popes to have not been popes, which I do not think he would, but if he did, I would be on board....because of the damage they've done to the Church that I've witnessed with my own eyes.

    If in some psychedelic world he added some pre-conciliar popes as not being popes "while he was at it," then, unlike the conciliar popes, we would know he is a bad pope.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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