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Author Topic: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?  (Read 127901 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
« Reply #45 on: Today at 09:42:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on Today at 09:35:30 AM
    The question was to you though Stubborn.  Not what your sede recording says, which you disregard anyway. 
    IOW, I actually would like him to make that declaration so that the sedes could boast of being right the whole time.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #46 on: Today at 09:43:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 09:33:05 AM
    Anything is possible? So a future Pope could declare, say, Pope St. Pius X to have been a false pope? Would that actually make St. Pius X to have been a false pope?
    How about you answer what if he did *not* declare that any of the conciliar popes were not popes?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #47 on: Today at 09:59:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 09:43:54 AM
    How about you answer what if he did *not* declare that any of the conciliar popes were not popes?
    You said that it is *absolutely* possible that a future pope declares the Conciliar popes to have been false popes. What would be the reason for him to do so? Do you think that a pope simply declaring a prior Pope to have been a false pope actually means that he was a false pope? Or is there some sort of criteria that needs to be met to make the popes declaration true?


    To your question, if you mean that a future Pope simply remained silent on the Conciliar popes, while condemning V2, the Novus Ordo, the rest of the new sacrament, etc. then the matter would remain an open question. But I do not believe that will happen.

    If you mean a future Pope actually declaring them to have been true popes, while condemning V2, the NO, the rest of the new sacraments, etc., I do not believe this will happen either. In fact, I admit no possibility of this happening, I would say I am morally certain it will not happen. But you say that it is absolutely possible that a future Pope does declare the Conciliar popes to have been false popes
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #48 on: Today at 10:05:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 09:09:41 AM
    See Aquinas's commentary on why God would allow such a thing:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Matt.C13.L2.n1145
    "Likewise, what was said, that the prince of a people should not be excommunicated, if you should see that there will be a greater scandal if he is excommunicated than in the fact that he does wrong, he should not be excommunicated; but if he had done something which was dangerous to the faith, without doubt he should be excommunicated, whatever damage might come from it."
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #49 on: Today at 10:21:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 10:05:31 AM
    "Likewise, what was said, that the prince of a people should not be excommunicated, if you should see that there will be a greater scandal if he is excommunicated than in the fact that he does wrong, he should not be excommunicated; but if he had done something which was dangerous to the faith, without doubt he should be excommunicated, whatever damage might come from it."

    Yes, normally those people should be officially excommunicated. No doubt. But if a Pope is prevented from doing so, either by an unwilling Curia or, according to the parable, by God's providential power itself, then the fact alone that excommunications did not happen cannot be said to be the fault of the Pope.

    The point is that in the end times, God has a design that is beyond human understanding. It is to allow the self-separation of the wheat from the weeds. Two paths are open: true traditional Faith and Sacraments or false new (novus) polluted faith and invalid sacraments.

    In the end, Catholics are free to choose their own path. One leads to salvation. One leads to damnation. God wants it that way.

    The questions about the justice of God's final plan are dealt with in 4 Esdras and the Book of Job.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #50 on: Today at 10:37:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 09:59:52 AM
    You said that it is *absolutely* possible that a future pope declares the Conciliar popes to have been false popes. What would be the reason for him to do so? Do you think that a pope simply declaring a prior Pope to have been a false pope actually means that he was a false pope? Or is there some sort of criteria that needs to be met to make the popes declaration true?
    As I've repeatedly said while referencing saint Francis in the OP, it is up to the Church. If she decides to give or to not give any criteria at all, it's all good. I am good with whatever the Church declares - should she even declare anything at all, which I don't think she will - but I certainly could be wrong.

    There are those  like me who do not believe such a declaration could ever happen because they have all been popes, period. 
    Then there are those also like me who say that were such a declaration made, it would not affect me or my faith one way or the other, except I would be happy for the sedes.
    Then there are the sedes who would have reason to rejoice if he made the declaration that they were not popes because for sedes, it is a critically important doctrine and is a necessary part of their faith. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #51 on: Today at 10:50:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 10:21:12 AM
    Yes, normally those people should be officially excommunicated. No doubt. 
    What principle was he stressing? when he said, "whatever damage might come from it."?
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #52 on: Today at 10:53:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 10:37:45 AM
    As I've repeatedly said while referencing saint Francis in the OP, it is up to the Church. If she decides to give or to not give any criteria at all, it's all good. I am good with whatever the Church declares - should she even declare anything at all, which I don't think she will - but I certainly could be wrong.

    There are those  like me who do not believe such a declaration could ever happen because they have all been popes, period.
    Then there are those also like me who say that were such a declaration made, it would not affect me or my faith one way or the other, except I would be happy for the sedes.
    Then there are the sedes who would have reason to rejoice if he made the declaration that they were not popes because for sedes, it is a critically important doctrine and is a necessary part of their faith.
    I asked if you believe that there is a possibility the Conciliar popes are declared false popes in the future. You said, "absolutely". Why do you think it is absolutely possible that it could happen? Would you say the same regarding Pius X, Pius IX, Leo XIII, etc., or is there something different between them and the Conciliar popes?

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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #53 on: Today at 11:19:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 08:12:05 AM
    The pope is not divine, he's not God. He has free will and everything. I post my reasons and references for saying what I've said, you do not believe such a thing is possible, this means your conclusion is a matter of faith when it shouldn't be. 

    If someone said they had a relic of Our Lady, a piece of bone. It would be a matter of faith to say that was impossible.

    It's not a matter of the pope being divine, but his actions become the Church's actions, and the Church IS divine. It is impossible for a true pope to issue a harmful liturgy. The Church said anathema to anyone who says otherwise. Get it?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #54 on: Today at 12:07:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 10:53:18 AM
    I asked if you believe that there is a possibility the Conciliar popes are declared false popes in the future. You said, "absolutely". Why do you think it is absolutely possible that it could happen? Would you say the same regarding Pius X, Pius IX, Leo XIII, etc., or is there something different between them and the Conciliar popes?
    You just answered why I do not think any such declaration will be made, although anything is possible. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #55 on: Today at 12:15:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 11:19:10 AM
    If someone said they had a relic of Our Lady, a piece of bone. It would be a matter of faith to say that was impossible.

    It's not a matter of the pope being divine, but his actions become the Church's actions, and the Church IS divine. It is impossible for a true pope to issue a harmful liturgy. The Church said anathema to anyone who says otherwise. Get it?
    The conciliar popes did issue a harmful liturgy. Your saying that this is impossible for true popes is your opinion, which IMO, is misguided. 

    The Church with St. Paul anathematizes anyone who preaches a different Gospel, but she does not anathematize anyone who  says popes can issue a harmful liturgy, especially when that's exactly what they did.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #56 on: Today at 12:30:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 10:53:18 AM
    I asked if you believe that there is a possibility the Conciliar popes are declared false popes in the future. You said, "absolutely". Why do you think it is absolutely possible that it could happen? Would you say the same regarding Pius X, Pius IX, Leo XIII, etc., or is there something different between them and the Conciliar popes?

    So, anyone who says that does not hold to the legitimay of the Conciliar papal claimants with the certainty of faith.  That would be like saying I believe that in the future the Church might reverse the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  If you say that, you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception with the certainty of faith.

    If they would only have the introspection to realzie this, and then invoke the principle that any well-founded doubt regarding papal legitimacy can absolve someone of schism for refusing submission, i.e. shift over to a "Doubt and Resist" type of position, we'd be much closer to a kind of unity among Traditional Catholics, not an operational unity, but at least where Trads can recognize that we're merely divided by a difference of opinion.

    But those like Stubborn will refuse to take that out and will continue to insist that the Church can become so corrupt as to lose its notes, and to require a refusal of submission and communion in order to keep the Catholic faith.  That's where they show themselves to be pertinacious heretics.

    I've appealed to "R&R" in the past to consider adopting Father Chazal's position, which does not labor under any problems for Catholic ecclesiology ... but they refuse, against steadfastly clinging to their heresy.

    One could adopt SedeImpoundism (Chazal), Doubt & Resist (+Lefebvre), or some other variation (e.g. where Montini was pope but his acts were invalid because they were not free, but forced by blackmail), etc.  There are a fair number of ways to avoid committing to that ultimate evil of SVism without destroying Catholic ecclesiology and losing the faith.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #57 on: Today at 12:51:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 10:50:27 AM
    What principle was he stressing? when he said, "whatever damage might come from it."?
    His comment must be understood as based on the premise that the actor CAN DO what Aquinas says should be done in principle. 

    But if the Pope CANNOT DO (is impeded either naturally or supernaturally from doing it), then we must accept that it is God’s Will. 

    As I said, the exact question, “WHY would a good God allow these bad things to happen to His Church in the end times,” are dealt with in 4 Esdras and in Job.
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #58 on: Today at 01:18:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 12:07:31 PM
    You just answered why I do not think any such declaration will be made, although anything is possible.
    Sorry, so you are saying it is also "absolutely" possible for a future pope to declare St. Pius X to have been a false pope? If that happened, would you accept it as true? Because you said you are "good" with whatever the Church declares. Or is there some criteria that would need to be met for you to accept a past pope being declared a false pope as true? 
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #59 on: Today at 01:43:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 12:51:51 PM
    But if the Pope CANNOT DO (is impeded either naturally or supernaturally from doing it), then we must accept that it is God’s Will.
    If God commands what one must do and can do, then He must supply the means to acquire the graces necessary to fulfill those commands.

    How can one who receives the supernatural power/grace tied to the office of the papacy that, "whatever you bind is bound, whatever you loose is loosed."
    but at the same time he is supernaturally "impeded" and he CANNOT DO what he has already received the power/grace to do? It seems to run contrary to the liberty of the Church.

    Concerning the post-concilar claimants to the papacy:

    1) Either God gave them the graces of the papacy, which they accepted and retained,

    or,

    2) They were impeded from receiving the graces of the papacy and therefore never received them,

    or,

    3) God did give them the graces, but they each went on to subsequently deviate from the faith and lose those graces.


    Are you suggesting a 4th option; i.e.,

    4) "God gave them the graces of the papacy, but then he impeded them from using them, because it is all part of the test of faith during the Great Apostasy."?
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