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Author Topic: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?  (Read 117139 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
« Reply #45 on: Today at 09:42:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on Today at 09:35:30 AM
    The question was to you though Stubborn.  Not what your sede recording says, which you disregard anyway. 
    IOW, I actually would like him to make that declaration so that the sedes could boast of being right the whole time.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #46 on: Today at 09:43:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 09:33:05 AM
    Anything is possible? So a future Pope could declare, say, Pope St. Pius X to have been a false pope? Would that actually make St. Pius X to have been a false pope?
    How about you answer what if he did *not* declare that any of the conciliar popes were not popes?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #47 on: Today at 09:59:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 09:43:54 AM
    How about you answer what if he did *not* declare that any of the conciliar popes were not popes?
    You said that it is *absolutely* possible that a future pope declares the Conciliar popes to have been false popes. What would be the reason for him to do so? Do you think that a pope simply declaring a prior Pope to have been a false pope actually means that he was a false pope? Or is there some sort of criteria that needs to be met to make the popes declaration true?


    To your question, if you mean that a future Pope simply remained silent on the Conciliar popes, while condemning V2, the Novus Ordo, the rest of the new sacrament, etc. then the matter would remain an open question. But I do not believe that will happen.

    If you mean a future Pope actually declaring them to have been true popes, while condemning V2, the NO, the rest of the new sacraments, etc., I do not believe this will happen either. In fact, I admit no possibility of this happening, I would say I am morally certain it will not happen. But you say that it is absolutely possible that a future Pope does declare the Conciliar popes to have been false popes
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #48 on: Today at 10:05:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 09:09:41 AM
    See Aquinas's commentary on why God would allow such a thing:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Matt.C13.L2.n1145
    "Likewise, what was said, that the prince of a people should not be excommunicated, if you should see that there will be a greater scandal if he is excommunicated than in the fact that he does wrong, he should not be excommunicated; but if he had done something which was dangerous to the faith, without doubt he should be excommunicated, whatever damage might come from it."
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    Online Angelus

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #49 on: Today at 10:21:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 10:05:31 AM
    "Likewise, what was said, that the prince of a people should not be excommunicated, if you should see that there will be a greater scandal if he is excommunicated than in the fact that he does wrong, he should not be excommunicated; but if he had done something which was dangerous to the faith, without doubt he should be excommunicated, whatever damage might come from it."

    Yes, normally those people should be officially excommunicated. No doubt. But if a Pope is prevented from doing so, either by an unwilling Curia or, according to the parable, by God's providential power itself, then the fact alone that excommunications did not happen cannot be said to be the fault of the Pope.

    The point is that in the end times, God has a design that is beyond human understanding. It is to allow the self-separation of the wheat from the weeds. Two paths are open: true traditional Faith and Sacraments or false new (novus) polluted faith and invalid sacraments.

    In the end, Catholics are free to choose their own path. One leads to salvation. One leads to damnation. God wants it that way.

    The questions about the justice of God's final plan are dealt with in 4 Esdras and the Book of Job.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #50 on: Today at 10:37:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 09:59:52 AM
    You said that it is *absolutely* possible that a future pope declares the Conciliar popes to have been false popes. What would be the reason for him to do so? Do you think that a pope simply declaring a prior Pope to have been a false pope actually means that he was a false pope? Or is there some sort of criteria that needs to be met to make the popes declaration true?
    As I've repeatedly said while referencing saint Francis in the OP, it is up to the Church. If she decides to give or to not give any criteria at all, it's all good. I am good with whatever the Church declares - should she even declare anything at all, which I don't think she will - but I certainly could be wrong.

    There are those  like me who do not believe such a declaration could ever happen because they have all been popes, period. 
    Then there are those also like me who say that were such a declaration made, it would not affect me or my faith one way or the other, except I would be happy for the sedes.
    Then there are the sedes who would have reason to rejoice if he made the declaration that they were not popes because for sedes, it is a critically important doctrine and is a necessary part of their faith. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #51 on: Today at 10:50:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on Today at 10:21:12 AM
    Yes, normally those people should be officially excommunicated. No doubt. 
    What principle was he stressing? when he said, "whatever damage might come from it."?
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #52 on: Today at 10:53:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 10:37:45 AM
    As I've repeatedly said while referencing saint Francis in the OP, it is up to the Church. If she decides to give or to not give any criteria at all, it's all good. I am good with whatever the Church declares - should she even declare anything at all, which I don't think she will - but I certainly could be wrong.

    There are those  like me who do not believe such a declaration could ever happen because they have all been popes, period.
    Then there are those also like me who say that were such a declaration made, it would not affect me or my faith one way or the other, except I would be happy for the sedes.
    Then there are the sedes who would have reason to rejoice if he made the declaration that they were not popes because for sedes, it is a critically important doctrine and is a necessary part of their faith.
    I asked if you believe that there is a possibility the Conciliar popes are declared false popes in the future. You said, "absolutely". Why do you think it is absolutely possible that it could happen? Would you say the same regarding Pius X, Pius IX, Leo XIII, etc., or is there something different between them and the Conciliar popes?

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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Freind

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    Re: Is a quote by St. Francis de Sale too much for R&R?
    « Reply #53 on: Today at 11:19:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 08:12:05 AM
    The pope is not divine, he's not God. He has free will and everything. I post my reasons and references for saying what I've said, you do not believe such a thing is possible, this means your conclusion is a matter of faith when it shouldn't be. 

    If someone said they had a relic of Our Lady, a piece of bone. It would be a matter of faith to say that was impossible.

    It's not a matter of the pope being divine, but his actions become the Church's actions, and the Church IS divine. It is impossible for a true pope to issue a harmful liturgy. The Church said anathema to anyone who says otherwise. Get it?
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