Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4

Author Topic: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.  (Read 1904 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 10299
  • Reputation: +6212/-1742
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2020, 11:19:30 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    Both Mgr Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to attend the Novus Ordo. 
    Poche, they are both wrong.  They aren’t infallible.   
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #16 on: September 12, 2020, 10:34:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 12:29:23 AM
    Leaving aside the near certainty that that's taken out of context, this isn't how logic works.  The conclusion doesn't flow from the premises at all.
    If they permit it then especially in cases where there are no TLM options then it must be that it is not a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo mass. Also it should be noted that while Matthew supports the TLM he has also said,   But among those who claim to be against Vatican II, there is one group that really boils my blood, and that is the "dogmatic home-aloners". " This also implies that in cases where there is no viable TLM option where you live or in your personal circuмstance then it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.  
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #17 on: September 12, 2020, 10:45:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: poche on September 12, 2020, 10:34:21 PM
    If they permit it then especially in cases where there are no TLM options then it must be that it is not a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo mass. Also it should be noted that while Matthew supports the TLM he has also said,   But among those who claim to be against Vatican II, there is one group that really boils my blood, and that is the "dogmatic home-aloners". " This also implies that in cases where there is no viable TLM option where you live or in your personal circuмstance then it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.  
    I've read that thread.  That is manifestly not what Matthew meant.  I know what dogmatic home aloners are.  They're strict sedes who for some reason don't believe independent/sedevacantist priests have supplied jurisdiction to administer the sacraments, so they basically think we should just stay  home and pray and not attend mass anywher,e period.  There is no way Matthew had in mind attendance at the Novus Ordo.

    And for what its worth, I don't believe its a mortal sin to attend the NO in most, if not all circuмstances.  For it to possibly be a mortal sin, I think you'd have to not only be aware of the problems with it, but you'd also have to be solidly convinced in your conscience that the service is an out and out sacrilege, and to the point where it truly is more pleasing to God to just stay home, but choose to attend it anyway for no reason.  That's *my* position, and I'll probably get some flack for some here.  But whatever your view, its dishonest to quote at least Bishop Williamson or Matthew in this fashion, and I suspect Fr. Pfeifer as well.
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #18 on: September 12, 2020, 11:06:51 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 10:45:27 PM
    I've read that thread.  That is manifestly not what Matthew meant.  I know what dogmatic home aloners are.  They're strict sedes who for some reason don't believe independent/sedevacantist priests have supplied jurisdiction to administer the sacraments, so they basically think we should just stay  home and pray and not attend mass anywher,e period.  There is no way Matthew had in mind attendance at the Novus Ordo.

    And for what its worth, I don't believe its a mortal sin to attend the NO in most, if not all circuмstances.  For it to possibly be a mortal sin, I think you'd have to not only be aware of the problems with it, but you'd also have to be solidly convinced in your conscience that the service is an out and out sacrilege, and to the point where it truly is more pleasing to God to just stay home, but choose to attend it anyway for no reason.  That's *my* position, and I'll probably get some flack for some here.  But whatever your view, its dishonest to quote at least Bishop Williamson or Matthew in this fashion, and I suspect Fr. Pfeifer as well.
    If there is no viable TLM available then it stands to reason that one should go to the Novus Ordo.  
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 11:07:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: poche on September 12, 2020, 11:06:51 PM
    If there is no viable TLM available then it stands to reason that one should go to the Novus Ordo.  
    If you want to argue that as your own opinion, fine.  But Matthew has not said this, nor did Bishop Williamson.  
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #20 on: September 13, 2020, 01:46:22 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 11:07:44 PM
    If you want to argue that as your own opinion, fine.  But Matthew has not said this, nor did Bishop Williamson.  
    Matthew said that being home alone is not good. He said that that is one of his pet peeves. So in the case of someone who has no access to the TLM, no access to an eastern rite liturgy, what else is left if not the Novus Ordo? And who knows, God could be calling that person to bring a sense of Tradition into that part of the world.   
    Logged

    Offline Kolar

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 81
    • Reputation: +52/-22
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #21 on: September 13, 2020, 05:53:10 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • The wrong question is being asked.
    We should not ask "is this a mortal sin?" Something may be venial sin. Then we cannot do it.
    We should ask "Is this what God wants me to do?"
    Does God want me to go to this NO mass? 
    In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, the answer is no. God would not want me to go to this NO Mass.
    The NO Mass is not a sacrifice giving honour to God. It is a community meal where we sit down with Jesus Christ as an equal and enjoy ourselves.
    God doesn't want me attending such a meal.
    To say such attendance is a mortal sin depends on too many circuмstances to make a general rule. Three things are required for mortal sin, grave matter, awareness of the gravity of the matter and full consent. If these are all there it is a mortal sin. But let us say they are not all there and it is not a mortal sin. Does that mean God wants me to go to the NO Mass? I think not.
    Logged

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13817
    • Reputation: +5566/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #22 on: September 13, 2020, 09:39:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: poche on September 13, 2020, 01:46:22 AM
    Matthew said that being home alone is not good. He said that that is one of his pet peeves. So in the case of someone who has no access to the TLM, no access to an eastern rite liturgy, what else is left if not the Novus Ordo? And who knows, God could be calling that person to bring a sense of Tradition into that part of the world.  
    "all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years". ^^
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #23 on: September 13, 2020, 11:59:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: poche on September 13, 2020, 01:46:22 AM
    Matthew said that being home alone is not good. He said that that is one of his pet peeves. So in the case of someone who has no access to the TLM, no access to an eastern rite liturgy, what else is left if not the Novus Ordo? And who knows, God could be calling that person to bring a sense of Tradition into that part of the world.  
    No, Matthew was talking about a movement called "dogmatic home aloners."  These people won't attend mass *anywhere*.  He specifically distinguished these people from people who are home alone only due to circuмstance.  Since I don't think many, if any people can't find an NO, it stands to reason that at a minimum, Matthew is not *targeting* people who would only attend a TLM.  Rather he is attacking people that think due to a power vaccuм in the Church, there isn't ANY mass that could be lawfully attended.
    Logged

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13817
    • Reputation: +5566/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #24 on: September 13, 2020, 03:05:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Kolar on September 13, 2020, 05:53:10 AM
    To say such attendance is a mortal sin depends on too many circuмstances to make a general rule. Three things are required for mortal sin, grave matter, awareness of the gravity of the matter and full consent. If these are all there it is a mortal sin. But let us say they are not all there and it is not a mortal sin. Does that mean God wants me to go to the NO Mass? I think not.
    Are you suggesting that the confused trad who asked the question to TIA, does not recognize attendance as a grave matter? Or is unaware of the gravity, or would go with only partial consent (thereby nullifying the danger)? If that was the case, then why would he ask the question at all?

    According to those three things....if he was planning on ever going there at all, the absolute worst thing he could ever do was ask that question. Thankfully TIA gave no answer so he remains confused, and because of his confusion he can call upon those three things to come to his defense should he need to - he is therefore free to go without any concern whatsoever about whether it is a mortal sin or not. And per his confusion combined with those three things, it's not a mortal sin.  

    Those three conditions are in need of correction because per those conditions, in his confusion he could decide to go once, then twice, then frequently - and lose his faith same as the multitudes who go / went there have. So much for those three things required for mortal sin.     



     
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #25 on: September 13, 2020, 03:43:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1

    • Quote
    Matthew said...Bishop Williamson said...etc
    Poche, you find people who will say what you want to hear.  I'm sure you've found some novus ordo "priests" who agree with you on other topics.  You're just a cafeteria catholic.
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #26 on: September 13, 2020, 04:01:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 13, 2020, 03:43:02 PM
    Poche, you find people who will say what you want to hear.  I'm sure you've found some novus ordo "priests" who agree with you on other topics.  You're just a cafeteria catholic.
    Correction: he finds people who he thinks said something sort of like what he wants to hear, and then rips them completely out of topic.

    I read that thread from Matthew, and that wasn't what he said.  And I seriously would trust Matthew over Poche on what Bishop Williamson meant too.
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #27 on: September 13, 2020, 11:01:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 13, 2020, 04:01:34 PM
    Correction: he finds people who he thinks said something sort of like what he wants to hear, and then rips them completely out of topic.

    I read that thread from Matthew, and that wasn't what he said.  And I seriously would trust Matthew over Poche on what Bishop Williamson meant too.
    This is the question in its entirety and Matthew's answer;
    What is your least favorite group in the Traditional Movement?

    First of all, I think you mean, "the broader, anti-Vatican 2 movement" because all Traditional Catholics are more or less OK with me by definition (despite some disagreements on side-topics here or there). But among those who claim to be against Vatican II, there is one group that really boils my blood, and that is the "dogmatic home-aloners". These are they who hate Vatican II and the new religion, but they believe there are no priests and bishops left, or that the Traditional Movement is still not legitimate to support. They stay at home on Sunday for dogmatic reasons, hence the "dogmatic" adjective. A normal Catholic without a Traditional Mass option who happens to stay at home on Sunday through no fault of his own is a home-aloner per accidens or only by coincidence. But the dogmatic home-aloners believe that getting into lifeboats is forbidden, so they flounder about in the open sea. Having lived in a Traditional lifeboat for my entire life (my parents met at a Traditional Catholic book publisher, and were married at a Traditional independent chapel), I can fully appreciate the folly of this group. They fail to realize that life has to go on, especially when the Crisis was intended by God to last 50+ years. Moreover, they are dead-wrong on their judgment regarding the validity of a priest or bishop. Their theology is obviously flawed.

    Matthew aslo said, "They fail to realize that life has to go on, especially when they realize that the Crisis was intended by God to last for 50+ years. I am not suggesting that the Novus Ordo is the mass that we prefer but I would suggest that staying at home alone indefinitely is not good for the soul. This is from the Wizard Clip:  In August 1804, Mr. McSherry nearly died of a severe illness. Having had some unpleasant difference with Father Cahill, he had not been to confession and communion for some time. But now the Voice told Mr. Livingston to go to Mr. McSherry and "his dear helpmate," as it always called his wife (according to Father Gallitzin), and to tell them that Mr. McSherry "should humble himself and go to confession, and touch Christ through the Church and he would be cured." The apparently dying man immediately sent for Father Cahill and that same night, which his family thought would be his last, he made his confession, received Holy Communion, made his thanksgiving and then fell into a peaceful sleep. The next morning he was up before anyone else and when his family saw him walking around the house, some of them at first thought he was a ghost. Actually, though still pale and emaciated, he was completely cured. And he lived until September 7, 1822.
    http://olrl.org/stories/wizclip.shtml
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #28 on: September 13, 2020, 11:39:16 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Poche, what’s worse - your reading comprehension or your lukewarm catholic principles?  You cannot serve both God (True Mass) and mammon (V2’s new mass).  Be a man.  Take a stand. 
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #29 on: September 14, 2020, 12:44:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 13, 2020, 11:39:16 PM
    Poche, what’s worse - your reading comprehension or your lukewarm catholic principles?  You cannot serve both God (True Mass) and mammon (V2’s new mass).  Be a man.  Take a stand.
    AMGD
    Logged
    Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
    « previous next »