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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on September 11, 2020, 10:34:15 AM

Title: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 11, 2020, 10:34:15 AM
from: https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/E062_NOM.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/E062_NOM.htm)

Your Response to Whether It is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass Was Inadequate



(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/Images/E_000_Objections2Men.jpg)
TIA,

In regards to your response to IRC (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B999_M249-Sor.html#nom) on September 8, regarding attending the Novus Ordo or no Mass if it is the only one available, I feel that your answer was somewhat inadequate.

You admit that it is a valid sacrament in which case that would suggest missing the sacrament altogether when a valid sacrament is available would be considered breaking the Sabbath and would be a mortal sin.

So the question is simply: Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when that is the only practical Mass available to you? Conversely, is it a mortal sin to miss that Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only one available to you?



TIA responds:


Deacon Dr. D.L.,


You are correct that when answering the question (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B999_M249-Sor.html#nom) to which you referred, we avoided entering into the moral consequences, whether it is or is not a mortal sin to attend or not attend the Novus Ordo Mass.

It is TIA policy to not overload traditionalist Catholics who come to us asking for orientation with more moral indictments in these difficult times in which we live, where Catholic have so much to respond to when they want to be faithful.

Many traditionalists superficially bombard others with such indictments, even when they have not made sufficient studies on the matter and are not sure of their position. Moved by insecurity they pressure others to come to their side by means of moral threats.

At TIA we give the principles pertinent to each case and leave their moral consequences to be taken by the interested parties. Doing so, we do not force our readers' decisions and we position ourselves outside of these wild skirmishes.

But since you asked straightforwardly whether or not it is a mortal sin to go to the New Mass, and you accused us of trying to circumvent the topic, we will open an exception to answer you and will set out what we think are the normal moral consequences of this action or omission.

We enter the subject matter.


These are our answers to your questions, Dr. D.L.. We hope they clarify the points that concern you.

     Cordially,

     TIA
Title: Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 11, 2020, 10:39:42 AM

Quote
It is TIA policy to not overload traditionalist Catholics who come to us asking for orientation with more moral indictments in these difficult times in which we live, where Catholic have so much to respond to when they want to be faithful.

Many traditionalists superficially bombard others with such indictments, even when they have not made sufficient studies on the matter and are not sure of their position. Moved by insecurity they pressure others to come to their side by means of moral threats.

At TIA we give the principles pertinent to each case and leave their moral consequences to be taken by the interested parties. Doing so, we do not force our readers' decisions and we position ourselves outside of these wild skirmishes.
A good policy.
Title: Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 12:37:14 PM
A good policy.

Yes, it makes sense.  Even if one has a strong opinion on the matter, no Catholic is in a position to bind others' consciences.  There's a tremendous amount of confusion out there and we have a vacuum of Church authority to give us direction.  I might opine, for instance, that it would be a mortal sin to attend the NOM, but that's all it is, an opinion.  I can use this opinion only to form MY OWN conscience, and may lay out arguments to persuade others, but that's as far as it can go without usurping the prerogatives that belong to Church authority alone.
Title: Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 11, 2020, 01:02:30 PM
Yes, it makes sense.  Even if one has a strong opinion on the matter, no Catholic is in a position to bind others' consciences.  There's a tremendous amount of confusion out there and we have a vacuum of Church authority to give us direction.

One of the reasons for the confusion is exemplified by the confused, non-answer TIA gives.

"Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only available? – we simply answer: It depends; it may or may not be a mortal sin."


Snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen about 20 years after V2, which is of course, still true today:
Quote
"...We will not torment you with talking about the atrocities, the falling away from the faith and the renunciation of the faith which goes on progressively in the conciliar church, so that by now, after this many years, it is hard to find a Catholic who knows what he believes, or knows what he's supposed to believe, or knows that he is supposed to believe.

We consider that it is a mortal sin to go to the new mass for any reason whatsoever. [...] Stay away from the conciliar church and if it is not wise for me to say so, all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years. 

But the main reason you stay away is because of the act itself, it is intrinsically evil because it has as it's intention, and I mean, that it was constructed, devised and imposed, in order to replace the True Mass. That is why it is there, not to worship God. The new mass is the instrumentality to banish the True Mass and all it's doctrine, even the true presence of Christ, and in the process to despoil the people of their richest treasure. Again if you don't believe this, it might be a question of faith..."
TIA's quote in the OP reminds me why I gave up on TIA a long time ago.





Title: Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: forlorn on September 11, 2020, 01:34:55 PM
One of the reasons for the confusion is exemplified by the confused, non-answer TIA gives.

"Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only available? – we simply answer: It depends; it may or may not be a mortal sin."


Snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen about 20 years after V2, which is of course, still true today:TIA's quote in the OP reminds me why I gave up on TIA a long time ago.
And what happened to the faith of those attending(and saying) the Tridentine Mass, that they let the New Mass come into being in the first place?

Fr. Wathen makes a decent point, but I don't think "people who do X are generally much more lax in faith" is enough proof to say that "doing X" is mortally sinful. It's an indicator to be wary, sure, but not proof it's grave sin by any means. 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 11, 2020, 02:05:49 PM

Quote
Even if one has a strong opinion on the matter, no Catholic is in a position to bind others' consciences.

Giving an opinion on the question, and backing it up with theological reasons, is not "binding" anyone.  TIA is playing middle-of-the-road, so they can keep viewership.
Title: Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 11, 2020, 02:15:23 PM
And what happened to the faith of those attending(and saying) the Tridentine Mass, that they let the New Mass come into being in the first place?

Fr. Wathen makes a decent point, but I don't think "people who do X are generally much more lax in faith" is enough proof to say that "doing X" is mortally sinful. It's an indicator to be wary, sure, but not proof it's grave sin by any means.
The point is, like it or not, he gave a crystal clear answer, and also clearly explains the reason for that answer. He did not take the middle ground spinlessly saying "mmmm, well, it depends..."  That person and many others needs a clear answer to that clear question. In typical fashion, TIA act like it is unanswerable, or a great mystery, or that it depends on the individual's thoughts and feelings.

As to your first question, it is exactly as Fr. Wathen said - it is a matter of faith.

The people willingly gave up their faith, some did so with great glee. One of my aunts for example who proudly boasted that she was the first female eucharistic minister in the country, that was around 1967ish. My folks argued with her and her husband till they were blue in the face over the whole crisis situation, and did the same with the rest of our relations, all to absolutely no avail. THOSE were times of mass confusion, but after 60 years of this crisis, Fr. Is right; "all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years".


To quote Last Tradhican from another thread: "Unfortunately, only maybe 1% (if that) of baptized Catholics live the faith". It *is* a matter of faith.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 02:32:23 PM
Giving an opinion on the question, and backing it up with theological reasons, is not "binding" anyone.  TIA is playing middle-of-the-road, so they can keep viewership.

I don't think so.  I think that they are just making distinctions.  So often here on CI distinctions are mis-characterized as compromises even when they are not.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 11, 2020, 02:55:24 PM
I don't think so.  I think that they are just making distinctions.  So often here on CI distinctions are mis-characterized as compromises even when they are not.
The question seeks a Yes or No answer - what was their answer? "Well, it depends..."

That is not making a distinction.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 03:04:01 PM
The question seeks a Yes or No answer - what was their answer? "Well, it depends..."

That is not making a distinction.

There are many distinctions in play, Stubborn.  So, for instance, objective vs. subjective mortal sin.  That is a huge distinction.  One could be certain that something is objectively a mortal sin but be unsure of the state of that person's conscience and whether that person was actually committing mortal sin before God.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
One might notice, however, that TIA was not primarily answering the question alluded to in the thread title, whether it's a mortal sin TO attend the New Mass, but, rather, they were answering the question whether it's a mortal sin NOT to attend the NOM if it's all that's available to you on a Sunday, i.e. whether the Sunday obligation requires attending the NOM.  They give a clear opinion on the matter that NO, it is not because the New Mass is "an activity that has the flavor of heresy and for this reason is highly offensive to Our Lord."

So ... "he must avoid going to this Mass so as not to fall into the sin of promoting an activity that has the flavor of heresy and for this reason is highly offensive to Our Lord. Therefore, he does not commit mortal sin by missing the Novus Ordo Mass."

It says here clearly that if someone KNOWS about the problems with the NOM, then "he must avoid going to this Mass".  This is the subjective vs. objective distinction, the stipulation that if the person knows and is aware of the problem with it.

So the Mass itself, they say, is "an activity that is highly offensive to Our Lord" (objectively very bad) and so one must avoid it if one knows it to be bad (subjective).
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 11, 2020, 03:26:14 PM
Quote
I think that they are just making distinctions.

They didn't make distinctions until pressed to do so, and when they did, they only looked at the question from the subjective view (i.e. personal understanding) and still avoided the objective/theological elephant-in-the-room.  The objective answer is:  "No, it's not a sin to skip a novus ordo service, because such a service is anti-catholic and sinful."  Then they could follow it up with their correct subjective explanation.
.
The real problem is that as many people who are lukewarm on EENS are also lukewarm on condemning the new mass.  Fr Wathen (and a few others) were truly unique and orthodox on these topics.  After 50+ years of liturgical madness, most Trads still can't condemn the new mass outright.  It's truly bizarre.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 11, 2020, 11:45:44 PM
Both Mgr Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to attend the Novus Ordo. Therefore it is not a sin to attend the New Mass. 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 12:29:23 AM
Both Mgr Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to attend the Novus Ordo. Therefore it is not a sin to attend the New Mass.
Leaving aside the near certainty that that's taken out of context, this isn't how logic works.  The conclusion doesn't flow from the premises at all.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 12, 2020, 05:41:13 AM
There are many distinctions in play, Stubborn.  So, for instance, objective vs. subjective mortal sin.  That is a huge distinction.  One could be certain that something is objectively a mortal sin but be unsure of the state of that person's conscience and whether that person was actually committing mortal sin before God.
Subjective or objective mortal sin does not nullify the sin, it might only change the degree of personal culpability, which only God knows to what degree.

Hell is full of souls who died in both, objective and subjective mortal sin.

I do not and never have understood why is it that trad priests and even bishops, who dislike, hate, even abhor and would not be caught dead saying the new mass themselves do not condemn with one clear voice, that going to the new mass is a mortal sin. Perhaps because, like EENS, they don't believe it themselves, which is crazy.

"all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years".

Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 12, 2020, 11:19:30 AM

Quote
Both Mgr Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to attend the Novus Ordo. 
Poche, they are both wrong.  They aren’t infallible.   
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 12, 2020, 10:34:21 PM
Leaving aside the near certainty that that's taken out of context, this isn't how logic works.  The conclusion doesn't flow from the premises at all.
If they permit it then especially in cases where there are no TLM options then it must be that it is not a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo mass. Also it should be noted that while Matthew supports the TLM he has also said,   But among those who claim to be against Vatican II, there is one group that really boils my blood, and that is the "dogmatic home-aloners". " This also implies that in cases where there is no viable TLM option where you live or in your personal circumstance then it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.  
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 10:45:27 PM
If they permit it then especially in cases where there are no TLM options then it must be that it is not a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo mass. Also it should be noted that while Matthew supports the TLM he has also said,   But among those who claim to be against Vatican II, there is one group that really boils my blood, and that is the "dogmatic home-aloners". " This also implies that in cases where there is no viable TLM option where you live or in your personal circumstance then it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.  
I've read that thread.  That is manifestly not what Matthew meant.  I know what dogmatic home aloners are.  They're strict sedes who for some reason don't believe independent/sedevacantist priests have supplied jurisdiction to administer the sacraments, so they basically think we should just stay  home and pray and not attend mass anywher,e period.  There is no way Matthew had in mind attendance at the Novus Ordo.

And for what its worth, I don't believe its a mortal sin to attend the NO in most, if not all circumstances.  For it to possibly be a mortal sin, I think you'd have to not only be aware of the problems with it, but you'd also have to be solidly convinced in your conscience that the service is an out and out sacrilege, and to the point where it truly is more pleasing to God to just stay home, but choose to attend it anyway for no reason.  That's *my* position, and I'll probably get some flack for some here.  But whatever your view, its dishonest to quote at least Bishop Williamson or Matthew in this fashion, and I suspect Fr. Pfeifer as well.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 12, 2020, 11:06:51 PM
I've read that thread.  That is manifestly not what Matthew meant.  I know what dogmatic home aloners are.  They're strict sedes who for some reason don't believe independent/sedevacantist priests have supplied jurisdiction to administer the sacraments, so they basically think we should just stay  home and pray and not attend mass anywher,e period.  There is no way Matthew had in mind attendance at the Novus Ordo.

And for what its worth, I don't believe its a mortal sin to attend the NO in most, if not all circumstances.  For it to possibly be a mortal sin, I think you'd have to not only be aware of the problems with it, but you'd also have to be solidly convinced in your conscience that the service is an out and out sacrilege, and to the point where it truly is more pleasing to God to just stay home, but choose to attend it anyway for no reason.  That's *my* position, and I'll probably get some flack for some here.  But whatever your view, its dishonest to quote at least Bishop Williamson or Matthew in this fashion, and I suspect Fr. Pfeifer as well.
If there is no viable TLM available then it stands to reason that one should go to the Novus Ordo.  
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 12, 2020, 11:07:44 PM
If there is no viable TLM available then it stands to reason that one should go to the Novus Ordo.  
If you want to argue that as your own opinion, fine.  But Matthew has not said this, nor did Bishop Williamson.  
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 13, 2020, 01:46:22 AM
If you want to argue that as your own opinion, fine.  But Matthew has not said this, nor did Bishop Williamson.  
Matthew said that being home alone is not good. He said that that is one of his pet peeves. So in the case of someone who has no access to the TLM, no access to an eastern rite liturgy, what else is left if not the Novus Ordo? And who knows, God could be calling that person to bring a sense of Tradition into that part of the world.   
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Kolar on September 13, 2020, 05:53:10 AM
The wrong question is being asked.
We should not ask "is this a mortal sin?" Something may be venial sin. Then we cannot do it.
We should ask "Is this what God wants me to do?"
Does God want me to go to this NO mass? 
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, the answer is no. God would not want me to go to this NO Mass.
The NO Mass is not a sacrifice giving honour to God. It is a community meal where we sit down with Jesus Christ as an equal and enjoy ourselves.
God doesn't want me attending such a meal.
To say such attendance is a mortal sin depends on too many circumstances to make a general rule. Three things are required for mortal sin, grave matter, awareness of the gravity of the matter and full consent. If these are all there it is a mortal sin. But let us say they are not all there and it is not a mortal sin. Does that mean God wants me to go to the NO Mass? I think not.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 13, 2020, 09:39:32 AM
Matthew said that being home alone is not good. He said that that is one of his pet peeves. So in the case of someone who has no access to the TLM, no access to an eastern rite liturgy, what else is left if not the Novus Ordo? And who knows, God could be calling that person to bring a sense of Tradition into that part of the world.  
"all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years". ^^
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 13, 2020, 11:59:14 AM
Matthew said that being home alone is not good. He said that that is one of his pet peeves. So in the case of someone who has no access to the TLM, no access to an eastern rite liturgy, what else is left if not the Novus Ordo? And who knows, God could be calling that person to bring a sense of Tradition into that part of the world.  
No, Matthew was talking about a movement called "dogmatic home aloners."  These people won't attend mass *anywhere*.  He specifically distinguished these people from people who are home alone only due to circumstance.  Since I don't think many, if any people can't find an NO, it stands to reason that at a minimum, Matthew is not *targeting* people who would only attend a TLM.  Rather he is attacking people that think due to a power vaccum in the Church, there isn't ANY mass that could be lawfully attended.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 13, 2020, 03:05:35 PM
To say such attendance is a mortal sin depends on too many circumstances to make a general rule. Three things are required for mortal sin, grave matter, awareness of the gravity of the matter and full consent. If these are all there it is a mortal sin. But let us say they are not all there and it is not a mortal sin. Does that mean God wants me to go to the NO Mass? I think not.
Are you suggesting that the confused trad who asked the question to TIA, does not recognize attendance as a grave matter? Or is unaware of the gravity, or would go with only partial consent (thereby nullifying the danger)? If that was the case, then why would he ask the question at all?

According to those three things....if he was planning on ever going there at all, the absolute worst thing he could ever do was ask that question. Thankfully TIA gave no answer so he remains confused, and because of his confusion he can call upon those three things to come to his defense should he need to - he is therefore free to go without any concern whatsoever about whether it is a mortal sin or not. And per his confusion combined with those three things, it's not a mortal sin.  

Those three conditions are in need of correction because per those conditions, in his confusion he could decide to go once, then twice, then frequently - and lose his faith same as the multitudes who go / went there have. So much for those three things required for mortal sin.     



 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 13, 2020, 03:43:02 PM

Quote
Matthew said...Bishop Williamson said...etc
Poche, you find people who will say what you want to hear.  I'm sure you've found some novus ordo "priests" who agree with you on other topics.  You're just a cafeteria catholic.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 13, 2020, 04:01:34 PM
Poche, you find people who will say what you want to hear.  I'm sure you've found some novus ordo "priests" who agree with you on other topics.  You're just a cafeteria catholic.
Correction: he finds people who he thinks said something sort of like what he wants to hear, and then rips them completely out of topic.

I read that thread from Matthew, and that wasn't what he said.  And I seriously would trust Matthew over Poche on what Bishop Williamson meant too.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 13, 2020, 11:01:13 PM
Correction: he finds people who he thinks said something sort of like what he wants to hear, and then rips them completely out of topic.

I read that thread from Matthew, and that wasn't what he said.  And I seriously would trust Matthew over Poche on what Bishop Williamson meant too.
This is the question in its entirety and Matthew's answer;
What is your least favorite group in the Traditional Movement?

First of all, I think you mean, "the broader, anti-Vatican 2 movement" because all Traditional Catholics are more or less OK with me by definition (despite some disagreements on side-topics here or there). But among those who claim to be against Vatican II, there is one group that really boils my blood, and that is the "dogmatic home-aloners". These are they who hate Vatican II and the new religion, but they believe there are no priests and bishops left, or that the Traditional Movement is still not legitimate to support. They stay at home on Sunday for dogmatic reasons, hence the "dogmatic" adjective. A normal Catholic without a Traditional Mass option who happens to stay at home on Sunday through no fault of his own is a home-aloner per accidens or only by coincidence. But the dogmatic home-aloners believe that getting into lifeboats is forbidden, so they flounder about in the open sea. Having lived in a Traditional lifeboat for my entire life (my parents met at a Traditional Catholic book publisher, and were married at a Traditional independent chapel), I can fully appreciate the folly of this group. They fail to realize that life has to go on, especially when the Crisis was intended by God to last 50+ years. Moreover, they are dead-wrong on their judgment regarding the validity of a priest or bishop. Their theology is obviously flawed.

Matthew aslo said, "They fail to realize that life has to go on, especially when they realize that the Crisis was intended by God to last for 50+ years. I am not suggesting that the Novus Ordo is the mass that we prefer but I would suggest that staying at home alone indefinitely is not good for the soul. This is from the Wizard Clip:  In August 1804, Mr. McSherry nearly died of a severe illness. Having had some unpleasant difference with Father Cahill, he had not been to confession and communion for some time. But now the Voice told Mr. Livingston to go to Mr. McSherry and "his dear helpmate," as it always called his wife (according to Father Gallitzin), and to tell them that Mr. McSherry "should humble himself and go to confession, and touch Christ through the Church and he would be cured." The apparently dying man immediately sent for Father Cahill and that same night, which his family thought would be his last, he made his confession, received Holy Communion, made his thanksgiving and then fell into a peaceful sleep. The next morning he was up before anyone else and when his family saw him walking around the house, some of them at first thought he was a ghost. Actually, though still pale and emaciated, he was completely cured. And he lived until September 7, 1822.
http://olrl.org/stories/wizclip.shtml (http://olrl.org/stories/wizclip.shtml)
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 13, 2020, 11:39:16 PM
Poche, what’s worse - your reading comprehension or your lukewarm catholic principles?  You cannot serve both God (True Mass) and mammon (V2’s new mass).  Be a man.  Take a stand. 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 14, 2020, 12:44:30 AM
Poche, what’s worse - your reading comprehension or your lukewarm catholic principles?  You cannot serve both God (True Mass) and mammon (V2’s new mass).  Be a man.  Take a stand.
AMGD
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 14, 2020, 05:07:17 AM
Poche, what’s worse - your reading comprehension or your lukewarm catholic principles?  You cannot serve both God (True Mass) and mammon (V2’s new mass).  Be a man.  Take a stand.
Sad to say that poche is CI's shining example - and should be used as such - as to what happens to those who go to the NO. Use him as our example as to what happens to those who attend the NO, hence why we must never attend it for any reason whatsoever lest we too become infected with the same liberalism and lose our faith without even knowing it. 




 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 14, 2020, 09:26:56 AM
Sad to say that poche is CI's shining example - and should be used as such - as to what happens to those who go to the NO. Use him as our example as to what happens to those who attend the NO, hence why we must never attend it for any reason whatsoever lest we too become infected with the same liberalism and lose our faith without even knowing it.  




 
I don't buy it.  I don't think an intelligent person would argue as badly as him, no matter what position they held to.  And I don't think a stupid person would argue much better than him, regardless of what position they held to.  I've seen Feeneyites who argue as poorly as he does, but of course I wouldn't castigate Fr. Feeney or someone like Ladislaus who obviously went to seminary and is obviously intelligent, even though I disagree with him, just on that ground.

I suspect, though I could be wrong, increasingly, that Poche is just simple minded and he does have the faith.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 14, 2020, 10:03:34 AM
I don't buy it.  I don't think an intelligent person would argue as badly as him, no matter what position they held to.  And I don't think a stupid person would argue much better than him, regardless of what position they held to.  I've seen Feeneyites who argue as poorly as he does, but of course I wouldn't castigate Fr. Feeney or someone like Ladislaus who obviously went to seminary and is obviously intelligent, even though I disagree with him, just on that ground.

I suspect, though I could be wrong, increasingly, that Poche is just simple minded and he does have the faith.
I do not think he is stupid at all, what he is, is he is simply NO. It is NO liberalism, false love and false ecumenism that comes out in his posts - which identifies him as a NOer, because those things are among the traits of and uniquely typical of devotees of the NO. They are not traits of all NOers, but they are traits of NOers who take their conciliar religion seriously.

   
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 14, 2020, 10:06:20 AM
I do not think he is stupid at all, what he is, is he is simply NO. It is NO liberalism, false love and false ecumenism that comes out in his posts - which identifies him as a NOer, because those things are among the traits of and uniquely typical of devotees of the NO. They are not traits of all NOers, but they are traits of NOers who take their conciliar religion seriously.

  
He lacks very rudimentary logic.  
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2020, 11:49:09 AM

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He lacks very rudimentary logic.
He does when he wants to seem pious, and he answers a logical question with sentimentalism, or dodges it altogether.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 14, 2020, 08:55:57 PM
He does when he wants to seem pious, and he answers a logical question with sentimentalism, or dodges it altogether.
Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I've never really seen him reason properly.  If I wanted to argue that people should attend NO masses in the absenece of a TLM option, I could do so far more reasonably than he could.  Not to say I'd be right, but I could do so in a way that at least makes logical sense given the premises.  Poche's argument literally doesn't follow from his premises at all.  Neither Bishop Williamson nor Fr. Pfeifer would even claim juridical authority over souls anyways.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 05:58:15 AM
Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I've never really seen him reason properly.  If I wanted to argue that people should attend NO masses in the absenece of a TLM option, I could do so far more reasonably than he could.  Not to say I'd be right, but I could do so in a way that at least makes logical sense given the premises.  Poche's argument literally doesn't follow from his premises at all.  Neither Bishop Williamson nor Fr. Pfeifer would even claim juridical authority over souls anyways.
What you are not accepting is that his reasoning is derived from his conciliar faith. You (and the rest of us on CI ?), correctly see that his reasoning is improper, but you are not connecting where he gets his reasoning from, which is his conciliar faith, which is drenched and permeated in Modernism, more specifically, Liberalism. These are the traits he reasons with, the same as all avid NOers, which is why you will rarely ever see him reason properly.

Which is why I said that he serves as a shining example as to why we must always stay away from the NO, lest we too become infected with the same liberal thinking. 
 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2020, 07:12:56 AM

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Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I've never really seen him reason properly.

He has in the past, with surprising coherence.  It surprised us all.  So either 1) Poche hides behind his fake-pious-sentimentalism to spread disorder and confusion (let's not forget that he's been kicked off other sites), or 2) there are multiple people behind his account (which would explain a lot), or 3) both.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 08:12:08 AM
He has in the past, with surprising coherence.  It surprised us all.  So either 1) Poche hides behind his fake-pious-sentimentalism to spread disorder and confusion (let's not forget that he's been kicked off other sites), or 2) there are multiple people behind his account (which would explain a lot), or 3) both.
That's a favourite of everyone in the NO. You'll see priests and bishops doing it 24/7, and there's not a single sentence that Francis has ever uttered that wasn't "fake-pious-sentimentalism". It's a convenient way of dodging a question. 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 11:27:33 AM
Well, I've asked poche repeatedly to state his principles, i.e. explain where he goes to Mass and why he hangs out on a Traditional Catholic forum.  He refused to answer that.  Consequently, I have come to the conclusion that he's trolling here.  There's no reason not to answer simple questions like, "I don't believe there was any error in Vatican II and I attend Mass at the FSSP" or something like that.  90% of his activity is justifying even the most outrageous misbehavior of the V2 papal claimants., but the arguments are often disingenuous if not mendacious, and so it makes me question his sincerity.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: Matto on September 15, 2020, 11:37:20 AM
Well, I've asked poche repeatedly to state his principles, i.e. explain where he goes to Mass and why he hangs out on a Traditional Catholic forum.

90% of his activity is justifying even the most outrageous misbehavior of the V2 papal claimants., but the arguments are often disingenuous if not mendacious, and so it makes me question his sincerity.

Has anyone ever wondered if the reason Poche has never been banned but people have been banned for complaining about Poche even though he is very unpopular is because Poche is really Matthew and that Poche's views are Matthew's real views and his main account is a psy-op and this forum is set up for nefarious purposes.

I don't believe it but it would be funny if it were true.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 16, 2020, 11:38:44 AM
Has anyone ever wondered if the reason Poche has never been banned but people have been banned for complaining about Poche even though he is very unpopular is because Poche is really Matthew and that Poche's views are Matthew's real views and his main account is a psy-op and this forum is set up for nefarious purposes.

I don't believe it but it would be funny if it were true.
LOL

Press X to doubt
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: MMagdala on September 16, 2020, 01:07:29 PM
Sad to say that poche is CI's shining example - and should be used as such - as to what happens to those who go to the NO. Use him as our example as to what happens to those who attend the NO, hence why we must never attend it for any reason whatsoever lest we too become infected with the same liberalism and lose our faith without even knowing it.  




 
Can't agree more with my brother Stubborn.

I have a friend who converted to the "N.O. Church" many years ago and only recently -- within the last 18 months or less -- discovered Tradition.  I have begged her to stop reverting to the N.O.M. whenever locating a TLM doesn't suit her schedule. (I'm talking more about weekday Masses, even, when there's no requirement to attend Mass at all.)  She lives in a state of confusion -- although in some ways I think it's far worse to go in and out like that than to stick with either one or the other.  The reason for the confusion is obvious to us, not to her, so I explained that once she starts exclusively attending the TLM, she will lose any sense of equivalency between the two, and her theological sensibilities will re-align, as will her spirituality.
Face it:  these are two different religions.  I was going to add "practically," but when you consider that "formally" really refers to the inherent structure and defining intellectual concepts of a body of beliefs, then it is more than just practically that New Church differs from Tradition.  Practically and formally, there are two different sets of beliefs and practices.  Practically and formally, New Church is not the Church of Tradition, not the Church Continuous, not the Church One, not the Church recognizably and objectively Catholic.  It's just that those differences have not been announced formally.  They exist formally, but without formal acknowledgement.

Regarding the question in the OP, I don't think it's a mortal sin simply to attend.  However, it could be a venial sin against the First and Third Commandments if you know in your heart that attending at least does not benefit you spiritually in the way that an available TLM does, but the TLM time or location is inconvenient.  In any case, it is a foolish idea.  I used to attend if I had no other choice.  I won't do that now because it harms my soul and scandalizes me. It is much more fruitful for me to follow interiorly a streamed TLM, to read spiritual material, listen to traditional sermons, pray (of course!), and engage in the spiritual and corporal works of mercy on Sunday if I truly have no other choice.  I recognize that all of those practices do not equal attendance at the Traditional Mass, and so I'm conscious of grieving that loss when I believe I have no other choice, but it is still, for me, a better choice than going to a N.O.M. and not being able to avoid seeing people engage in people-watching, attention-getting, Protestant behavior, and other forms of irreverence.  It's sacrilegious to me.
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 17, 2020, 12:27:03 AM
Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I've never really seen him reason properly.  If I wanted to argue that people should attend NO masses in the absenece of a TLM option, I could do so far more reasonably than he could.  Not to say I'd be right, but I could do so in a way that at least makes logical sense given the premises.  Poche's argument literally doesn't follow from his premises at all.  Neither Bishop Williamson nor Fr. Pfeifer would even claim juridical authority over souls anyways.
Fr. Pfeiffer travels around saying mass in various places. He may not claim a 'juridical authority' but he certainly claims a moral authority. There are people who listen to what he has to say. 
Mgr. Williamson also travels around. He talks to the people. He also may not have any 'juridical authority' but that doesn't mean that he is silent. He writes prolifically. I believe that even more people are interested in what he has to say.
Both of them are prominent in the Resistance movement. Both of them have at one time or another have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo. I don't think that they meant not go to the TLM when it is available. However there are those who for one reason or another are unable to go to the TLM, either because of the distance or maybe for some other good reason. In those instances they have implied that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo. 
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 17, 2020, 12:31:03 AM
The wrong question is being asked.
We should not ask "is this a mortal sin?" Something may be venial sin. Then we cannot do it.
We should ask "Is this what God wants me to do?"
Does God want me to go to this NO mass?  
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, the answer is no. God would not want me to go to this NO Mass.
The NO Mass is not a sacrifice giving honour to God. It is a community meal where we sit down with Jesus Christ as an equal and enjoy ourselves.
God doesn't want me attending such a meal.
To say such attendance is a mortal sin depends on too many circumstances to make a general rule. Three things are required for mortal sin, grave matter, awareness of the gravity of the matter and full consent. If these are all there it is a mortal sin. But let us say they are not all there and it is not a mortal sin. Does that mean God wants me to go to the NO Mass? I think not.
I agree. We should always ask ourselves, "Is this what God wants me to do?"
Title: Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
Post by: poche on September 17, 2020, 04:37:39 AM
Has anyone ever wondered if the reason Poche has never been banned but people have been banned for complaining about Poche even though he is very unpopular is because Poche is really Matthew and that Poche's views are Matthew's real views and his main account is a psy-op and this forum is set up for nefarious purposes.

I don't believe it but it would be funny if it were true.
I am not Matthew.