Author Topic: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.  (Read 861 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
« on: September 11, 2020, 10:34:15 AM »
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  • Your Response to Whether It is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass Was Inadequate




    TIA,

    In regards to your response to IRC on September 8, regarding attending the Novus Ordo or no Mass if it is the only one available, I feel that your answer was somewhat inadequate.

    You admit that it is a valid sacrament in which case that would suggest missing the sacrament altogether when a valid sacrament is available would be considered breaking the Sabbath and would be a mortal sin.

    So the question is simply: Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when that is the only practical Mass available to you? Conversely, is it a mortal sin to miss that Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only one available to you?



    TIA responds:


    Deacon Dr. D.L.,


    You are correct that when answering the question to which you referred, we avoided entering into the moral consequences, whether it is or is not a mortal sin to attend or not attend the Novus Ordo Mass.

    It is TIA policy to not overload traditionalist Catholics who come to us asking for orientation with more moral indictments in these difficult times in which we live, where Catholic have so much to respond to when they want to be faithful.

    Many traditionalists superficially bombard others with such indictments, even when they have not made sufficient studies on the matter and are not sure of their position. Moved by insecurity they pressure others to come to their side by means of moral threats.

    At TIA we give the principles pertinent to each case and leave their moral consequences to be taken by the interested parties. Doing so, we do not force our readers' decisions and we position ourselves outside of these wild skirmishes.

    But since you asked straightforwardly whether or not it is a mortal sin to go to the New Mass, and you accused us of trying to circumvent the topic, we will open an exception to answer you and will set out what we think are the normal moral consequences of this action or omission.

    We enter the subject matter.


    • Before answering your questions, we must clarify a presupposition: You believe that when we admit that a Mass is valid, we are automatically suggesting that it is a mortal sin to not attend it. This is not precise. Many Black Masses are valid and of course they should not be atended. Most of the Greek-Schismatic sacraments are valid and we believe they should be avoided always, even when they are the only sacraments available. So, your premise is wrong.
    • To your first question – Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only available? – we simply answer: It depends; it may or may not be a mortal sin.
    • To respond to your second question – Is it a mortal sin to miss a Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only one available? – we have to distinguish two perspectives: In principle and in practice:


      • In principle,


        • If the person is not aware of the crisis in the Church, the habitual rules of attending Sunday Masses and the Holy Days of Obligation apply to him. That is, it may be a mortal sin if he misses this duty, depending on the cause in each case.
        • However, if he is aware of the take-over of the Catholic Church by Progressivism, he must avoid going to this Mass so as not to fall into the sin of promoting an activity that has the flavor of heresy and for this reason is highly offensive to Our Lord. Therefore, he does not commit mortal sin by missing the Novus Ordo Mass.
      • In practice, adding to the reasons mentioned for normal times (3.A.b.), since April 2020, no Catholic is under the threat of mortal sin when he misses the Novus Ordo Mass, for the following reasons:


        • Pope Francis and the local Bishops dispensed Catholics worldwide from attending Masses under the pretext of avoiding the contagion of Covid-19. So, all were/are dispensed from attending it without pain of mortal sin.
        • Even where the churches are reopening, the imposition of social distancing is limiting the number of attendees to the Mass to a very small proportion of the church's capacities. All the faithful who exceed these limits are dispensed from their Mass obligation. Many Catholics may simply not try to attend it and still benefit from the dispensation.

          In both of these cases – those who exceed the permitted number allowed in the churches and those who do not even try to attend – there is no mortal sin.
        • If tomorrow the Conciliar Church were to return to normality in its Masses, it would be very difficult to convince Catholics that they must attend Mass under pain of going to Hell.

          Indeed, since the faithful see the ease with which the Pope and Bishops, just to follow the requests of the local governments, dispensed everyone from attending Masses and replaced it with the possibility of watching a streamed video "mass," it will be very difficult to convince those same persons that this possibility no longer exists and that they should physically assist at Mass under the former rule of commiting a mortal sin if they do not.

          Why not continue to just watch present or past "masses" on one's TV or electronic devices?
        • In conclusion, the unwise handlling of dispensations during this sanitary crisis seems to have compromised very seriously the teaching that those who do not attend Novus Ordo Masses commit mortal sin. This applies to the last months, the present and the future.

    These are our answers to your questions, Dr. D.L.. We hope they clarify the points that concern you.

         Cordially,

         TIA
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 10:39:42 AM »
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  • Quote
    It is TIA policy to not overload traditionalist Catholics who come to us asking for orientation with more moral indictments in these difficult times in which we live, where Catholic have so much to respond to when they want to be faithful.

    Many traditionalists superficially bombard others with such indictments, even when they have not made sufficient studies on the matter and are not sure of their position. Moved by insecurity they pressure others to come to their side by means of moral threats.

    At TIA we give the principles pertinent to each case and leave their moral consequences to be taken by the interested parties. Doing so, we do not force our readers' decisions and we position ourselves outside of these wild skirmishes.
    A good policy.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 12:37:14 PM »
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  • A good policy.

    Yes, it makes sense.  Even if one has a strong opinion on the matter, no Catholic is in a position to bind others' consciences.  There's a tremendous amount of confusion out there and we have a vacuum of Church authority to give us direction.  I might opine, for instance, that it would be a mortal sin to attend the NOM, but that's all it is, an opinion.  I can use this opinion only to form MY OWN conscience, and may lay out arguments to persuade others, but that's as far as it can go without usurping the prerogatives that belong to Church authority alone.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 01:02:30 PM »
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  • Yes, it makes sense.  Even if one has a strong opinion on the matter, no Catholic is in a position to bind others' consciences.  There's a tremendous amount of confusion out there and we have a vacuum of Church authority to give us direction.

    One of the reasons for the confusion is exemplified by the confused, non-answer TIA gives.

    "Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only available? – we simply answer: It depends; it may or may not be a mortal sin."


    Snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen about 20 years after V2, which is of course, still true today:
    Quote
    "...We will not torment you with talking about the atrocities, the falling away from the faith and the renunciation of the faith which goes on progressively in the conciliar church, so that by now, after this many years, it is hard to find a Catholic who knows what he believes, or knows what he's supposed to believe, or knows that he is supposed to believe.

    We consider that it is a mortal sin to go to the new mass for any reason whatsoever. [...] Stay away from the conciliar church and if it is not wise for me to say so, all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years. 

    But the main reason you stay away is because of the act itself, it is intrinsically evil because it has as it's intention, and I mean, that it was constructed, devised and imposed, in order to replace the True Mass. That is why it is there, not to worship God. The new mass is the instrumentality to banish the True Mass and all it's doctrine, even the true presence of Christ, and in the process to despoil the people of their richest treasure. Again if you don't believe this, it might be a question of faith..."
    TIA's quote in the OP reminds me why I gave up on TIA a long time ago.





    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 01:34:55 PM »
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  • One of the reasons for the confusion is exemplified by the confused, non-answer TIA gives.

    "Is it a mortal sin to go to the Novus Ordo Mass when it is the only available? – we simply answer: It depends; it may or may not be a mortal sin."


    Snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen about 20 years after V2, which is of course, still true today:TIA's quote in the OP reminds me why I gave up on TIA a long time ago.
    And what happened to the faith of those attending(and saying) the Tridentine Mass, that they let the New Mass come into being in the first place?

    Fr. Wathen makes a decent point, but I don't think "people who do X are generally much more lax in faith" is enough proof to say that "doing X" is mortally sinful. It's an indicator to be wary, sure, but not proof it's grave sin by any means. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #5 on: September 11, 2020, 02:05:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    Even if one has a strong opinion on the matter, no Catholic is in a position to bind others' consciences.

    Giving an opinion on the question, and backing it up with theological reasons, is not "binding" anyone.  TIA is playing middle-of-the-road, so they can keep viewership.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #6 on: September 11, 2020, 02:15:23 PM »
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  • And what happened to the faith of those attending(and saying) the Tridentine Mass, that they let the New Mass come into being in the first place?

    Fr. Wathen makes a decent point, but I don't think "people who do X are generally much more lax in faith" is enough proof to say that "doing X" is mortally sinful. It's an indicator to be wary, sure, but not proof it's grave sin by any means.
    The point is, like it or not, he gave a crystal clear answer, and also clearly explains the reason for that answer. He did not take the middle ground spinlessly saying "mmmm, well, it depends..."  That person and many others needs a clear answer to that clear question. In typical fashion, TIA act like it is unanswerable, or a great mystery, or that it depends on the individual's thoughts and feelings.

    As to your first question, it is exactly as Fr. Wathen said - it is a matter of faith.

    The people willingly gave up their faith, some did so with great glee. One of my aunts for example who proudly boasted that she was the first female eucharistic minister in the country, that was around 1967ish. My folks argued with her and her husband till they were blue in the face over the whole crisis situation, and did the same with the rest of our relations, all to absolutely no avail. THOSE were times of mass confusion, but after 60 years of this crisis, Fr. Is right; "all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years".


    To quote Last Tradhican from another thread: "Unfortunately, only maybe 1% (if that) of baptized Catholics live the faith". It *is* a matter of faith.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #7 on: September 11, 2020, 02:32:23 PM »
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  • Giving an opinion on the question, and backing it up with theological reasons, is not "binding" anyone.  TIA is playing middle-of-the-road, so they can keep viewership.

    I don't think so.  I think that they are just making distinctions.  So often here on CI distinctions are mis-characterized as compromises even when they are not.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #8 on: September 11, 2020, 02:55:24 PM »
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  • I don't think so.  I think that they are just making distinctions.  So often here on CI distinctions are mis-characterized as compromises even when they are not.
    The question seeks a Yes or No answer - what was their answer? "Well, it depends..."

    That is not making a distinction.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #9 on: September 11, 2020, 03:04:01 PM »
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  • The question seeks a Yes or No answer - what was their answer? "Well, it depends..."

    That is not making a distinction.

    There are many distinctions in play, Stubborn.  So, for instance, objective vs. subjective mortal sin.  That is a huge distinction.  One could be certain that something is objectively a mortal sin but be unsure of the state of that person's conscience and whether that person was actually committing mortal sin before God.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 03:09:11 PM »
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  • One might notice, however, that TIA was not primarily answering the question alluded to in the thread title, whether it's a mortal sin TO attend the New Mass, but, rather, they were answering the question whether it's a mortal sin NOT to attend the NOM if it's all that's available to you on a Sunday, i.e. whether the Sunday obligation requires attending the NOM.  They give a clear opinion on the matter that NO, it is not because the New Mass is "an activity that has the flavor of heresy and for this reason is highly offensive to Our Lord."

    So ... "he must avoid going to this Mass so as not to fall into the sin of promoting an activity that has the flavor of heresy and for this reason is highly offensive to Our Lord. Therefore, he does not commit mortal sin by missing the Novus Ordo Mass."

    It says here clearly that if someone KNOWS about the problems with the NOM, then "he must avoid going to this Mass".  This is the subjective vs. objective distinction, the stipulation that if the person knows and is aware of the problem with it.

    So the Mass itself, they say, is "an activity that is highly offensive to Our Lord" (objectively very bad) and so one must avoid it if one knows it to be bad (subjective).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #11 on: September 11, 2020, 03:26:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    I think that they are just making distinctions.

    They didn't make distinctions until pressed to do so, and when they did, they only looked at the question from the subjective view (i.e. personal understanding) and still avoided the objective/theological elephant-in-the-room.  The objective answer is:  "No, it's not a sin to skip a novus ordo service, because such a service is anti-catholic and sinful."  Then they could follow it up with their correct subjective explanation.
    .
    The real problem is that as many people who are lukewarm on EENS are also lukewarm on condemning the new mass.  Fr Wathen (and a few others) were truly unique and orthodox on these topics.  After 50+ years of liturgical madness, most Trads still can't condemn the new mass outright.  It's truly bizarre.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #12 on: September 11, 2020, 11:45:44 PM »
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  • Both Mgr Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to attend the Novus Ordo. Therefore it is not a sin to attend the New Mass. 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #13 on: September 12, 2020, 12:29:23 AM »
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  • Both Mgr Williamson and Fr Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to attend the Novus Ordo. Therefore it is not a sin to attend the New Mass.
    Leaving aside the near certainty that that's taken out of context, this isn't how logic works.  The conclusion doesn't flow from the premises at all.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is It a Mortal Sin to Attend the New Mass.
    « Reply #14 on: September 12, 2020, 05:41:13 AM »
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  • There are many distinctions in play, Stubborn.  So, for instance, objective vs. subjective mortal sin.  That is a huge distinction.  One could be certain that something is objectively a mortal sin but be unsure of the state of that person's conscience and whether that person was actually committing mortal sin before God.
    Subjective or objective mortal sin does not nullify the sin, it might only change the degree of personal culpability, which only God knows to what degree.

    Hell is full of souls who died in both, objective and subjective mortal sin.

    I do not and never have understood why is it that trad priests and even bishops, who dislike, hate, even abhor and would not be caught dead saying the new mass themselves do not condemn with one clear voice, that going to the new mass is a mortal sin. Perhaps because, like EENS, they don't believe it themselves, which is crazy.

    "all you need to do is consider what has happened to the faith of those who have been attending the new mass through the years".

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse


     

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