God knows all about us and all that we would do and if we would be saved or not. I thought that God knows who will be good and who will be bad. Knowing this I thought that God would place souls who he knows would reject the truth if it were given to them in situations where they never hear the truth and he can put those who he knows will cooperate with grace where they can receive it. He knows who will and who will not cooperate with grace before he gives it.

.


A good friend of mine who attempted to take me to task on the
question of invincible ignorance, was under the impression that it
is some kind of means of salvation.  He brought up the question
to a priest in the context of a catechism discussion, and the
priest said that no, no one can be saved by invincible ignorance.  

But my friend did not really believe it.  

He had to go to work everyday and be around people who are of
other religions, mostly Jєωιѕн, whose culture absolutely forbids
them to learn anything about the Catholic Faith, and so, my
friend was unable to make any inroads sharing his faith with them
because they would then besmirch him with the moniker of the
dreaded "anti-Semitism," and CREDIBILITY was all too important
to become a subject of collateral damage.  

So my friend, in order to maintain the respect of his colleagues,
presumed they were 'invincibly ignorant' and therefore he did not
have to try to teach them what they did not want to know.  

I told him, "Anyone who can pronounce the words 'invincibly
ignorant' is not eligible for that category of lack of knowledge."  
He didn't like to hear that.  It got in the way of his fantasy.

Pray for my friend.  He has not survived to this day.  




The infinite providence of God and the infinite mercy of God and
the infinite perfection of the providence and mercy of God would
have us know that our sophisms and presumption cannot prohibit
God from giving to every man on earth what he needs to save his
soul, nor can we prohibit God from doing what He knows best in
a given situation.  

Are we going to dare to put upon God our requirements for who
is and who is not going to be saved?  

Who are we to say that God cannot know that a certain person
in his heart does not want to know about God or God's will, or
does not have any desire to learn how to love God?  

Why is God suddenly obliged to grant infidels salvation just
because the presumption of man has come up with a theory that
so-and-so could have been invincibly ignorant?  


How can we know what is in the heart of a man?  But God knows.


Invincible ignorance is a double negative.

To have it, someone must  A)  NOT have knowledge and   B)   be
incapable of becoming informed.  


It is basically a clever cloaking of the most ancient of heresies
that even the pagan Gorgias knew, and it has been known as the
great heresy. It is said that there is really only one heresy, and
it's in 3 parts. And it can be stated it in this form, as it has been
handed down through the 2 or 3 millennia since he died:  




~   There is no truth.

~   Even if there were truth, it could not be known.

~   Even if truth were to be known, it could not be communicated.




Some principles or sage statements from the ancients come down
to us as short essences like this, and it's all we have left from the
fact that a person had lived thousands of years ago.  And this fact
alone puts to the lie this proto-heresy of Gorgias, for, the story
of his life is given to us by the fact of his doctrine being passed
down through the ages, or 3-- "communicated."  

And, we can  2-- "know" what he taught long ago as the "truth"
of his life's work.  

And finally, Gorgias did live, and he did teach, and he did profess
this doctrine which is known to us today as the "only heresy."  
This 1-- "is the truth."


Now, whether Gorgias really thought of it as being a heresy or not
is another question, for his writings are all lost (thanks in large part
to the Mohammedans who destroyed the great library in Alexandria)
and all we have are brief mentions of him in later works.

But this great heresy attributed to Gorgias can be condensed as
follows:  



Someone who cannot be informed of the truth cannot therefore
know the truth, and for him, the truth does not exist.  

But if all he knows always excludes the truth, he will never become
informed of the truth, if any such truth exists, and his ignorance
cannot be overcome.

Therefore, such a one is invincibly ignorant.




"Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say:
Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages
that were before us"  (Eccl. i. 10).

Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, O.P., a famous 16th century Dominican theologian, summed up the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on this topic very well. Here is how he put it:

“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come, will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief. As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.

Let's conduct an informal poll:

Do I, as a human being, exist?

Here are your choices:

1.  Yes, you are undoubtedly a human being with an immortal soul.
2.  Nope, but I am sure that you are a space alien.
3.  No, you are a sophisticated, soulless computer.
4.  "Duffy, the Talking Cat!?!"
5.  None of the above.
6.  Some of the above.
7.  Don't know, unsure, or 'n/a'.
8.  Don't care.
9.  I think that I am "invincibly ignorant" with respect to the question of your existence.

Now, if you choose #1 above, then you must admit that I, as a human being, have convinced you that I, indeed, do exist, and if I have the capability of convincing you, dear reader, that I exist, then you must also admit that I have the same capability of convincing others that I exist.  Of course, if I am capable of convincing someone, anyone, that I exist, certainly the omnipotent One and Triune God can do the same!  For the infinite and Perfect God can certainly do that which I, his created creature, can do!  Therefore, there can be no truly invincibly ignorant persons with respect to the Gospel, except, of course, if the Holy Spirit, for whatever reason, has allowed and/or tolerated individuals to remain in such a state?!

Now with all due respect,  I am against a confusing Poll.

We should not confuse this thread with any off beat polls, that take away the intent of the subject, Which is the very important Subject of Invinciple Ignorance.

This will only throw off the Discussions as it did on the Topic of "In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney".  

I hope all agree.

D.

Thanks for bringing this up JAM.  Although I am not sure of your position , for or against ?
This response to your satement gives me an opportunity to present some facts to hopefully clarify the weakly wording of PPIX in his "Fallable" Encyclicle to the cardninals of Italy.  Its a little lengthy, but should clear up this misconception.

                    QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

Pope Pius IX proceeded to speak about the invincibly ignorant again seven years later in his encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, August 10, 1863. Quanto Conficiamur Moerore does not meet the requirements for infallibility; it is addressed only to the cardinals and bishops of Italy.

Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion AND WHO ZEALOUSLY KEEPING THE NATURAL LAW AND ITS PRECEPTS ENGRAVED IN THE HEARTS OF ALL BY GOD, AND BEING READY TO OBEY GOD, LIVE AN HONEST AND UPRIGHT LIFE, can, by the OPERATING POWER OF DIVINE LIGHT AND GRACE, attain eternal life since God...will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.”

First, notice that Pope Pius IX specifically condemns the idea that a man “living in error and separated from the true Faith” can be saved. What, is the idea of salvation for the “invincibly ignorant”? Why, of course, it is the idea that a man living in error and separated from the true Faith can be saved. So, the very concept of salvation for the “invincibly ignorant” is condemned as QUITE CONTRARY TO CATHOLIC TEACHING in this very docuмent of Pope Pius IX.
 
Second, notice again that Pope Pius IX does not say anywhere that the invincibly ignorant can be saved where they are. Rather, he is reiterating that the ignorant, if they cooperate with God’s grace, keep the natural law and respond to God’s call, they can by God’s “operating power of divine light and grace” [being enlightened by the truth of the Gospel] attain eternal life, since God will certainly bring all of his elect to the knowledge of the truth and into the Church by baptism.

According to the specific definition of Sacred Scripture, “divine light” is the Gospel truth of Jesus Christ (the Catholic Faith) which removes the ignorant from darkness
.
Ephesians 5:8 “For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light.”

1 Thess. 5:4-5 “But you, brethren [believers], are not in darkness… For all you are the children of the light.”

Colossians 1:12-13: “Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.”

1 Peter 2:9: “But you are a chosen generation… a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4: “And if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.”
 
2 Timothy 1:10: “But is now made manifest by the illumination of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath destroyed death, and hath brought to light life and incorruption by the Gospel.”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican I (+1870): “… no one can ‘assent to the preaching of the Gospel,’ as he must to attain salvation, without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all a sweetness in consenting to and believing the truth.”
 
So, we must not interpret Pius IX’s words in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore about the good-willed ignorant being saved by receiving “divine light and grace” contrary to their clear scriptural and Traditional meaning, which is that divine light and grace is received by hearing of the Gospel, believing it and being baptized.

Thus, in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, Pius IX is saying that the good-willed, sincere person who is ignorant of the Faith will be “illuminated” by receiving the “divine light” (hearing the Gospel) and will enter the Catholic Church so that he can be saved.

 Pope Pius IX was not nearly as clear as he could have been in the second half of Quanto Conficiamur Moerore. The heretics have had a field day with it, because they think that they can exploit its wording to favor their heresy that there is salvation outside the Church.

 If Pope Pius IX had repeated in a strong way the previous definitions of the popes, without any ambiguous language, he would have avoided the danger of modernists misinterpreting his words. This is a shame because almost all of his statements on this topic do very clearly affirm Church dogma without any ambiguity that heretics can jump on.

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”

Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

Pope Pius IX- Syllabus of Modern Errors- Proposition 16, Dec. 8, 1854: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned

Notice again that the concept of salvation for the “invincibly ignorant” is condemned here. The concept of salvation for the “invincibly ignorant,” as it is held by almost everyone who holds it today, is that some men – including those who observe non-Catholic religions – can find and arrive at salvation in these religions because they are “without fault of their own.”

But this is heretical and condemned by Pius IX’s own Syllabus of Errors above.

                    QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

Pope Pius IX proceeded to speak about the invincibly ignorant again seven years later in his encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, August 10, 1863. Quanto Conficiamur Moerore does not meet the requirements for infallibility; it is addressed only to the cardinals and bishops of Italy.

Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion AND WHO ZEALOUSLY KEEPING THE NATURAL LAW AND ITS PRECEPTS ENGRAVED IN THE HEARTS OF ALL BY GOD, AND BEING READY TO OBEY GOD, LIVE AN HONEST AND UPRIGHT LIFE, can, by the OPERATING POWER OF DIVINE LIGHT AND GRACE, attain eternal life since God...will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.”

Pope Pius IX did not talk about those who are in a state of "invincibly ignorance" (which, we all agree is non-salvific) but about those who "labor in invincible ignorance".  Why the "labor"?  Answer, "Because the Holy Spirit, the source of all Truth, is leading that person into the One True Church."  If they fail to come into the Catholic Church through deliberate, willful sin, then they will be damned; in all cases, they have failed to fully cooperate with the graces of the Holy Spirit, which, possibly, could constitute only a venial sin, as could, perhaps, be the case with a pre-teen Protestant.