Author Topic: invincible ignorance the traditional priesthood (Read 1562 times)

curiouscatholic23 · « **on:** October 13, 2011, 01:23:44 PM »

I have been listening to audio tapes from both Bishop Richard Williamson (SSPX) and Bishop Pivarunas (CMRI) and both support this idea of invincible ignorance. That is, people who are not aware of Jesus Christ and his church can still be saved even though they have not been baptized and even though they do not have the faith.

My question is, could a man get accepted into the SSPX or the CMRI if they totally reject this belief as heretical, as MHFM do as as Fr. Feeney did? Would they even let a man with those beliefs into their seminary and ordain him, or would he have to change his tune and believe in "invincible ignorance?"

SJB · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2011, 07:53:02 AM »

Quote from: curiouscatholic23

I have been listening to audio tapes from both Bishop Richard Williamson (SSPX) and Bishop Pivarunas (CMRI) and both support this idea of invincible ignorance. That is, people who are not aware of Jesus Christ and his church can still be saved even though they have not been baptized and even though they do not have the faith.
My question is, could a man get accepted into the SSPX or the CMRI if they totally reject this belief as heretical, as MHFM do as as Fr. Feeney did? Would they even let a man with those beliefs into their seminary and ordain him, or would he have to change his tune and believe in "invincible ignorance?"

Following St. Thomas, it can be said that a man who hasn't the Faith, whether he is guilty for that or not, cannot be saved. This is de fide. I don't think either Bp. Williamson or Pivarunas would deny this. Maybe you misunderstand their position?

SJB · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2011, 10:30:21 AM »

Quote from: Hermenegild

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: curiouscatholic23
I have been listening to audio tapes from both Bishop Richard Williamson (SSPX) and Bishop Pivarunas (CMRI) and both support this idea of invincible ignorance. That is, people who are not aware of Jesus Christ and his church can still be saved even though they have not been baptized and even though they do not have the faith.
My question is, could a man get accepted into the SSPX or the CMRI if they totally reject this belief as heretical, as MHFM do as as Fr. Feeney did? Would they even let a man with those beliefs into their seminary and ordain him, or would he have to change his tune and believe in "invincible ignorance?"

Following St. Thomas, it can be said that a man who hasn't the Faith, whether he is guilty for that or not, cannot be saved. This is de fide. I don't think either Bp. Williamson or Pivarunas would deny this. Maybe you misunderstand their position?

They would say that a man's faith could be implicit. Something Saint Thomas never taught but which every so called trad priest believes.

The "invincible ignorance" referred to is concerning the duty to join the Church, not whether or not a man has the virtue of supernatural Faith. Supernatural Faith is required in all cases.

Gregory I · « **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2011, 12:32:15 AM »

Hermengild, St. Thomas DID teach Implicit Faith.

“Unbelief does not so wholly destroy natural reason in unbelievers, but that some knowledge of the truth remains in them, whereby they are able to do deeds that are generically good. With regard, however, to Cornelius, it is to be observed that he was not an unbeliever, else his works would not have been acceptable to God, whom none can please without faith. Now he had implicit faith, as the truth of the Gospel was not yet made manifest: hence Peter was sent to him to give him fuller instruction in the faith.” (II-II, Q. 10, A.4, Reply to the third)