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Offline JeffreyAugustine

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Invalid Sacraments due to intent
« on: January 05, 2018, 03:29:42 PM »
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  • Pax vobis.

    I wanted to get some clarification after reading on this subject via the SSPX Q&A section of their website.

    I was baptized in the 1970's by a priest who was ordained in the "old rite" by a bishop that was ordained priest\bishop in the "old rite". 

    I was confirmed by an Archbishop who was ordained priest in the "old rite" but a bishop in the "new rite". 

    I will be married by a priest who was ordained in the "new rite" by a bishop that was ordained bishop in the "new rite" 

    What do I need to consider or research as to the validity of the sacraments that I have received?

    My assumption is that the correct form and matter were valid but I need to focus on the intent, thoughts?

    Does the Church supply in this case if there was a lack of intent so that the sacraments that I have received are valid?

    My concern here of course would be that I need to baptized, confirmed and married by a priest\bishop that I know has the proper intent using valid form and matter. 

    Any help that you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

    PAX,

    Jeffrey.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments due to intent
    « Reply #1 on: January 05, 2018, 03:44:36 PM »
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    Does the Church supply in this case if there was a lack of intent so that the sacraments that I have received are valid?
    My understanding is that the "old rite" of the sacraments provides the proper intent, (assuming valid matter/form) because the rite was designed to provide the intent, regardless of the priest's intention.  For example:  Baptism says "I baptize thee in the name of..."  Even if the priest doubts that baptism works, even if a heretic baptizes you, if he says the prescribed words (form) and pours water on the forehead (matter), then it's a valid sacrament.

    For your baptism, it was probably valid, assuming they used the old rite.  Even the new rite for baptism is probably valid.  It's not long enough for modernists to screw with.
    For confirmation, I don't know.  I think it's doubtful (both for the bishop's consecration and the sacramental rite) and it wouldn't be wrong to get conditionally re-confirmed.
    For matrimony, since the couple marries themselves, I think you're fine.  You might be able to get conditionally re-married and then you could get the marital blessing?


    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments due to intent
    « Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 06:49:37 PM »
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  • NO baptisms are generally valid. As long as “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” were used, it’s good. 

    Confirmation is problematic. New rite, any oil can be used, while olive oil must be used for validity. Plus, the wide arrange of what is considered “form” can be problematic. Best course of action is always get conditionally confirmed by a traditional bishop. 

    As long as you were both validly baptized, NO marriage is valid considering yours and your wife’s intent. 

    The real trick, and the most complicated is the validity of Holy Orders. Speak to a good traditional priest and see what he says. A general confession would also be recommended. 

    Offline JeffreyAugustine

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments due to intent
    « Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 11:31:46 AM »
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  • Thank you for the replies, much appreciated.

    I have also found this on the SSPX site which further discusses conditional baptism and confirmation. 

    Why does the Society of St. Pius X administer conditionally the sacraments of baptism and confirmation to those who received them in the Novus Ordo?
    It is forbidden for a priest to administer a sacrament conditionally unless there is some doubt about the validity of the sacrament already received. A mere suspicion does not suffice, but any real doubt does (i.e., when there is a positive reason to think that the sacrament might have been invalidly administered), since the sacraments are so necessary for the salvation and sanctification of our souls.

    In general there is no doubt as to the validity of the sacrament of baptism administered in the post-Conciliar Church, since the matter and the form are very simple and have been retained, despite the whole new theology replacing the washing of original sin (and actual sin in adults) from the soul with the nebulous social concept of belonging to a community. In general, there is no reason to doubt that the priest has the intention of doing what the Church does, even though he may have a false notion of what this is. However, it will happen from time to time, that the sacrament is administered in such a sacrilegious way as to place in doubt even the matter or form or even the intention of doing what the Church does. In such rare cases, in which even the rules of the Novus Ordo are not followed, it may be necessary to administer the sacrament of baptism conditionally in order to guarantee validity.

    The bishops of the Society administer the sacrament of confirmation conditionally when the faithful request it, that is, when they have a reasonable doubt as to the validity of the sacrament that they received, and this doubt cannot be resolved, as is usually the case. This is the case if oil other than the sacred chrism is used, or an oil other than olive oil (highly doubtful, since at variance with the divine institution of using olive oil) as is now permitted in the new rites, or if the signing with the sacred chrism and the imposition of the hand were not done at the same time, or if there is a doubt about the words used. Since there is a great variety in the words used, and since the traditional words "I sign thee with the sign of the cross and I confirm thee with the chrism of salvation, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"are never used, there is very frequently a doubt about the validity of the administration of this sacrament.  This is the reason why the Society’s bishops do not hesitate to administer it conditionally when asked to do so.  [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

    PAX,

    Jeffrey

    Offline poche

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments due to intent
    « Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 02:04:05 AM »
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  • According to the Dialogue of St Catherine of Sienna, they had this same problem in her day. 


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments due to intent
    « Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 10:42:30 AM »
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  • Pax vobis.

    I wanted to get some clarification after reading on this subject via the SSPX Q&A section of their website.

    I was baptized in the 1970's by a priest who was ordained in the "old rite" by a bishop that was ordained priest\bishop in the "old rite".

    I was confirmed by an Archbishop who was ordained priest in the "old rite" but a bishop in the "new rite".

    I will be married by a priest who was ordained in the "new rite" by a bishop that was ordained bishop in the "new rite"

    What do I need to consider or research as to the validity of the sacraments that I have received?

    My assumption is that the correct form and matter were valid but I need to focus on the intent, thoughts?

    Does the Church supply in this case if there was a lack of intent so that the sacraments that I have received are valid?

    My concern here of course would be that I need to baptized, confirmed and married by a priest\bishop that I know has the proper intent using valid form and matter.

    Any help that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

    PAX,

    Jeffrey.
    In my opinion you cannot ever  know intent.  This assumes the priest/bishop is not schismatic/heretic/etc.
    You are probably fine with your baptism since that one is hard to foul up as long as he said the proper words and poured water.
    Since a priest can confirm with approval of a bishop, you may be fine with your confirmation.  If it were me, I would get it conditionally re done.
    Knowing what you know, why are you having a NO-ordained priest witness your wedding?  Regardless, since the sacrament of matrimony is given spouse to spouse and the priest is only a witness, you are fine there, too, except if the priest says a mass during your wedding.  If that is the case, why would you receive sacraments from him?
    I hope that helps.
    Congrats on your pending nuptials.

     

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