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Author Topic: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion  (Read 13172 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2024, 04:43:38 AM »
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  • I have indeed looked and read up on the different positions.

    It would just seem to me that the conclusion would be that many traditional Catholics would be in objective mortal sin if they are currently receiving invalid sacraments or attending una cuм Masses.

    Also, perhaps some traditionalists take the risk of attendings Masses of a doubtful traditional cleric due to habit or wanting to keep the habit through simulation.

    I wanted to simply ask the thoughts of those who are sedevacantists and hardliners on this matter to get a better understanding. 
    I wonder what you mean by “hardline”. Can you explain. A hardliner what?

    I agree that Catholics could be in mortal sin if they knowingly receive invalid sacraments, but I am at a loss to understand your thinking the same of una cuм. After all, we don’t get to create new commandments and sins according to our own whims.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #16 on: March 02, 2024, 05:12:53 AM »
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  • I have indeed looked and read up on the different positions.

    It would just seem to me that the conclusion would be that many traditional Catholics would be in objective mortal sin if they are currently receiving invalid sacraments or attending una cuм Masses.

    Also, perhaps some traditionalists take the risk of attendings Masses of a doubtful traditional cleric due to habit or wanting to keep the habit through simulation.

    I wanted to simply ask the thoughts of those who are sedevacantists and hardliners on this matter to get a better understanding. 
    Kephapaulos,
    I do not understand what makes you think it is a sin to attend a Mass una cuм. Exactly what sin is it that you think is being committed - exactly?

    Did you not read what +ABL said that I posted earlier? . . . ."It is not said in this prayer that we embrace all ideas that the Pope may have or all the things he may do....We pray for the Pope and all those who practice the Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox faith!"

    At any rate, these days we must go where we know the priest and sacraments are valid, never go where we know they are invalid, and where there is doubt we are bound to find out before we receive the sacraments. That's just the way it is these days.

    If after due diligence you find out you were wrong and are sure you received invalid sacraments, then don't do that anymore and tell that to the valid priest in confession when you find one and let him be your judge, that's his job. IMO, there is no sin there but that's only IMO, it means nothing, let the priest sort it out.

    While IMO there are many doubtfully valid priests out there, I do not think there are very many people, if any, who attend Mass / receive the sacraments from doubtful or invalid priests on purpose.

    But if that is the case, then they should never receive the sacraments from those priests. What they need to do is  once or twice a year make the long, long journey to a priest they know for certain is valid and receive the sacraments from him in order to fulfill our yearly obligation to receive communion and go to confession.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #17 on: March 02, 2024, 05:37:56 AM »
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  • I have indeed looked and read up on the different positions.

    It would just seem to me that the conclusion would be that many traditional Catholics would be in objective mortal sin if they are currently receiving invalid sacraments or attending una cuм Masses.

    Also, perhaps some traditionalists take the risk of attendings Masses of a doubtful traditional cleric due to habit or wanting to keep the habit through simulation.

    I wanted to simply ask the thoughts of those who are sedevacantists and hardliners on this matter to get a better understanding. 
    That's good that you have researched the positions out there.  I guess I'm just not sure what asking our thoughts would do for you beyond that. I would think that those that post here tend to follow/agree with one of the positions you already researched.  I highly doubt any of us have some unique stand. 

    I tend to agree with and trust Bishop Pivarunas on these sorts of matters.  I am hesitant to claim any Traditional Catholic who is trying to survive this mess as being in mortal sin.  I don't think any Traditional Catholic would go to a mass with a priest he/she knows to be certainly invalid.

    Outside of the una cuм issue, the only other time I have heard of this idea is from the home alone contingent who believe that ALL traditional masses are illicit without a pope.
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #18 on: March 02, 2024, 06:12:45 AM »
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  • That's good that you have researched the positions out there.  I guess I'm just not sure what asking our thoughts would do for you beyond that. I would think that those that post here tend to follow/agree with one of the positions you already researched.  I highly doubt any of us have some unique stand. 

    I tend to agree with and trust Bishop Pivarunas on these sorts of matters.  I am hesitant to claim any Traditional Catholic who is trying to survive this mess as being in mortal sin.  I don't think any Traditional Catholic would go to a mass with a priest he/she knows to be certainly invalid.

    Outside of the una cuм issue, the only other time I have heard of this idea is from the home alone contingent who believe that ALL traditional masses are illicit without a pope.
    I've never heard that, only that none of the traditional clergy have jurisdiction and no miracles to support them.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #19 on: March 02, 2024, 07:04:52 AM »
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  • I've never heard that, only that none of the traditional clergy have jurisdiction and no miracles to support them.
    I'm fairly certain that Home-Aloners believe that the Trad masses are illicit at best (and therefore mortally sinful to attend). 
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #20 on: March 02, 2024, 10:43:34 AM »
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  • I'm fairly certain that Home-Aloners believe that the Trad masses are illicit at best (and therefore mortally sinful to attend).
    Yep, that's what the ones I knew believed. One family I knew had full access to daily Mass of then Fr. Sanborn less than half a mile away from their home for a long time but did not and would not go.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #21 on: March 18, 2024, 12:28:32 AM »
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  • I wonder what you mean by “hardline”. Can you explain. A hardliner what?

    I agree that Catholics could be in mortal sin if they knowingly receive invalid sacraments, but I am at a loss to understand your thinking the same of una cuм. After all, we don’t get to create new commandments and sins according to our own whims.

    I use the term "hardliner" to include sedevacantists and Resistance since they take more of a strict stance in regard to Vatican II, while the SSPX has tended to more of a soft line these days like the indult and conservative Novus Ordo, even though some SSPX are secret hardliners perhaps. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #22 on: March 18, 2024, 12:41:43 AM »
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  • That's good that you have researched the positions out there.  I guess I'm just not sure what asking our thoughts would do for you beyond that. I would think that those that post here tend to follow/agree with one of the positions you already researched.  I highly doubt any of us have some unique stand. 

    I tend to agree with and trust Bishop Pivarunas on these sorts of matters.  I am hesitant to claim any Traditional Catholic who is trying to survive this mess as being in mortal sin.  I don't think any Traditional Catholic would go to a mass with a priest he/she knows to be certainly invalid.

    Outside of the una cuм issue, the only other time I have heard of this idea is from the home alone contingent who believe that ALL traditional masses are illicit without a pope.

    Thank you and everyone for your responses. I guess I do have the temptation to fall into human respect, but I do admire most of the traditional groups. I would need to respect the rules of certain groups, of course, if I ever attended their chapels. 

    I wanted to simply have help and advice in understanding better these issues of validity and una cuм since they touch salvation it seems in principle. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Invalid Sacraments and/or una cuм Conclusion
    « Reply #23 on: March 18, 2024, 07:27:25 AM »
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  • I would need to respect the rules of certain groups, of course, if I ever attended their chapels.

    I dispute this.  None of these Trad groups has actual jurisdiction over the faithful, nor can they bind their consciences.  Their roles are that of emergency dispensers of the Sacraments to the faithful during their crisis.  They cannot bind consciences beyond that to which the Church has already bound them.  So, for instance, they may refuse the Sacraments for someone who's living in clear public sin (e.g. a bad marriage) or an individual who approaches Holy Communion immodestly dressed, etc. ... but they can't refuse the Sacraments based on their assertion that the CMRI is a schismatic sect and the Thuc line is invalid (neither of which has been determined by the Church).