Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Interpretation of Vatican II  (Read 2461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2026, 10:20:23 AM »
You guys suffer from severe cognitive dissonance and it seems you are circle-jerking in order to avoid the dissonance.

I just quoted Trent Council's infaillibly and you still persist in your error.

If you think numbers matter in the eyes of God, you are severely mistaken.
1.  Trent's canons are infallible.  Non-canon explanations in the docuмents aren't infallible.
2.  "the desire thereof" is not part of a canon.  It's not infallible.
3.  Catechisms aren't infallible.  Even more so, TRANSLATIONS (from the latin) of catechisms are even further away from infallibility.

Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2026, 11:18:13 AM »
1.  Trent's canons are infallible.  Non-canon explanations in the docuмents aren't infallible.
2.  "the desire thereof" is not part of a canon.  It's not infallible.
3.  Catechisms aren't infallible.  Even more so, TRANSLATIONS (from the latin) of catechisms are even further away from infallibility.
You are cherry-picking what you consider infallible or not based on your pre-conceived views. 

I did not quote the Catechism I quoted the canon directly. You are partaking in sophistry and you are only desperately attempting to fool yourself to avoid suffering from cognitive dissonance.

This is a psychological issue not a doctrinal issue. I am done with this discussion. If you think you can fool God with your sophistry, I bid you good luck. 


Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2026, 11:20:28 AM »
Lazarus, this is what you posted from Trent:

Trent is, in part, condemning those who say that men can obtain the grace of justification through faith alone without the sacraments or without the desire for them. Who in this thread is denying that?

Do you believe that men can obtain justification through faith and the sacraments, but without the desire for the sacraments?
How could someone have the faith, get baptised and not desire the sacraments, unless they are insane? This is redundant. 

Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2026, 11:39:59 AM »
How could someone have the faith, get baptised and not desire the sacraments, unless they are insane? This is redundant.
The Church makes these distinctions to safeguard the nature of the sacraments and the reality of free will

At first it may seem redundant, but the Church defines these distinctions because the sacraments require proper intention and interior disposition.

Just as a priest who withholds the intention to consecrate does not confect the Eucharist, and spouses who withhold consent do not contract marriage, so too baptism and faith require more than an external act.

A person can receive baptism validly and yet lack a true interior desire for the sacramental life, through ignorance, tepidity, or merely external conformity. That does not mean insanity. And if someone truly lacks the use of reason, there is no sin, since culpability requires knowledge and consent.


Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2026, 12:02:05 PM »
As articulated by St. Ambrose of Milan in his funerary oration De obitu Valentiniani consolationis* (392 AD) regarding Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen who died suddenly without water baptism.

The passage from paragraphs 51–53 is preserved verbatim in patristic editions and dogmatic compilations:

"...Sed audio vos dolere, quod non acceperit sacramentum baptismatis. Dicite mihi, quid aliud in nobis est, nisi voluntas, nisi petitio? Atqui etiam dudum hoc voti habuit, ut, cuм in Italiam venisset, initiaretur, et proxime baptizari se a me velle significavit, et ideo prae ceteris causis me accersendum putavit. Non habet ergo gratiam quam desideravit? Non habet quam poposcit? Certe, quia poposcit, accepit. Et unde illud est: "Iustus quacuмque morte preventus fuerit, anima eius in requie erit"... quod si suo abluuntur [martyres] sanguine, et hunc sua pietas abluit et voluntas.1

"But I hear that you grieve since he did not receive the sacrament of Baptism. Tell me, what else is in your power but the desire, the petition? But even for a long time he [Valentinian] had this desire, that when he came into Italy, he should be initiated, and recently he made known that he wanted to be baptized by me, and so he thought I should be summoned for this reason, before other reasons. Surely because he asked, he received, and hence there is the Scripture: 'The just man, whatsoever death he may be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest'... If [martyrs] are washed in their own blood, his devotedness and intention washed him."1

This text equates Valentinian's explicit desire and petition for baptism, expressed to Saint Ambrose himself, with salvific efficacy, akin to baptism of blood for martyrs, since death (not contempt) intervened.1

The Magisterium unequivocally endorses Saint Ambrose's teaching as authoritative for catechumens dying ante sacramentum. A Roman response (cited in Enchiridion Symbolorum, Dz 388/741, pre-Vatican I compilation) applies it directly to an unbaptized priest:

"We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's "City of God" where among other things it is written, "*Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian * where he says the same thing**.1"