Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Interpretation of Vatican II  (Read 974 times)

1 Member and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 05:32:49 PM »
Charles Coulombe answers well:
I agree with this explanation, we can consider this quote to be dubious. But I have better quotes that cannot be considered to be dubious. 

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #31 on: Today at 04:50:09 AM »
"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them, men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."

Source: Council of Trent, Session VII (March 3, 1547), Decree on the Sacraments, Canon 4 on the Sacraments in General.

St. Cyprian, Church Father (3rd Century): The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle LXXII: "Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood".

I am not going to list every single quote, but you can find them here :
https://baptismofdesire.org/
Here again as regards Canon IV, BODers "read meanings into words which the words they read do not say, while failing to advert to what the words do say."

Consider that St. Alphonsus' commentary of Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV explains it perfectly:

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire" [spiritual communion]. 

We also have Session VI, Chapter IV where Trent teaches that Justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration. This right here tells us that no sacrament = no justification.

Trent goes on to say that justification also cannot be effected without the desire for the laver of regeneration.

Which is saying both the sacrament and the desire for the sacrament are necessary for justification. Even if someone disagrees with this, they must admit that nowhere does Trent say the desire alone is all that is needed to be saved. Heck, Trent does not even say that about the actual sacrament.

The BOD website is a travesty which exemplifies what I have said a few times already as regards reading meanings into words that the words do not say. 


Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #32 on: Today at 05:31:53 AM »
Here again as regards Canon IV, BODers "read meanings into words which the words they read do not say, while failing to advert to what the words do say."

Consider that St. Alphonsus' commentary of Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV explains it perfectly:

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire" [spiritual communion].

We also have Session VI, Chapter IV where Trent teaches that Justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration. This right here tells us that no sacrament = no justification.

Trent goes on to say that justification also cannot be effected without the desire for the laver of regeneration.

Which is saying both the sacrament and the desire for the sacrament are necessary for justification. Even if someone disagrees with this, they must admit that nowhere does Trent say the desire alone is all that is needed to be saved. Heck, Trent does not even say that about the actual sacrament.

The BOD website is a travesty which exemplifies what I have said a few times already as regards reading meanings into words that the words do not say.
Yeah, I think Trent alone is sufficient to show that the Sacrament of Baptism administered in water is necessary for salvation. 

Quote
Sess. VII

DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS

For the completion of the salutary doctrine on Justification, which was promulgated with the unanimous consent of the Fathers in the last preceding Session, it hath seemed suitable to treat of the most holy Sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is repaired....

Quote
ON BAPTISM

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema

The Fathers at Trent thought fit to include 14 Canons on Baptism in particular, it is odd that they did not see fit to include the 'doctrine' of BOD and BOB in those canons. Not only did they exclude any mention of BOD/BOB in the canons on Baptism, they explicitly condemned the "[wresting], to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ, Unless a man be born again of water..."

And in the prior Session, On Justification, Ch. IV, they included the same Words of Our Lord (the wresting of which to some sort of metaphor condemned by the same Council), to show how the Ch. IV description is to be believed:

Quote
...And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God


Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: Interpretation of Vatican II
« Reply #33 on: Today at 05:49:00 AM »
"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them, men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."

Source: Council of Trent, Session VII (March 3, 1547), Decree on the Sacraments, Canon 4 on the Sacraments in General.

St. Cyprian, Church Father (3rd Century): The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle LXXII: "Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood".

I am not going to list every single quote, but you can find them here :
https://baptismofdesire.org/
St Cyprian believed that blood able to be the element in baptism and an angel would pronounce the words. This is wrong as the Church would define the element as "pure and natural water".