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Author Topic: Infallibility of Canonizations  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline trad123

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Infallibility of Canonizations
« on: September 02, 2009, 01:45:52 AM »
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  • 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 02:12:15 AM »
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  • A correction needs to be made, in case people get the wrong impression. CM is right in saying saints are not infallible, only the pope is given infallibility as an individual when speaking ex cathedra, in virtue of his office.

    I'm merely posting St. Bellarmine to refute his second proposition:

    Quote
    Canonizations are not infallible (infallibility was bestowed upon St. Peter to guard the deposit of Faith- Divine revelation- canonizations are not part of this).
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 02:17:00 AM »
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  • Offline Lover of Truth

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 10:27:02 AM »
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  • That is true.  If canonizations were not infallable why would we bother praying to anyone?  Why even go through the canonization process?  Why celebrate their feast days and make it so no one prays for them?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 04:03:19 PM »
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  • You have to be able to discern.  If a saint lived a good life, was humble, and to all outward appearances died a holy death etc. then they are a model of imitation for us.

    But the pope's infallibility comes from God, and he can only infallibly define doctrines of Faith or morals, which are contained in Scripture and Tradition, which also are infallible.

    You can't reasonably argue that the pope is protected when marking a model of imitation for the faithful, when he is doing so, based on the testimony of men, who are fallible.

    It's simple, really.  Everyone knows that the pope is NOT infallible in everything, but he still must be obeyed in everything, in which he does not command us to sin.

    A pope does not say in a canonization "You have to accept this or that doctrine that is contained in a work attributed to this or that saint", but most people want to look at it that way, as though a canonization means the saint himself was never capable of erring, falling into heresy at one point or another, or even being non-Catholic.

    But the point is, since this command to sin never takes place, and since it is foolish to presume that we have better knowledge than the pope at the time, and since we cannot know how a saints works may have been tampered with over the years, we cannot withhold obedience to the canonization like Ibranyi does.


    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 04:04:33 PM »
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  • Once more for the record, I am not saying that a person can go around denouncing saints as heretics, but they MUST point out the errors and heresies ATTRIBUTED to the saint, and refuse assent to them.

    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 04:08:46 PM »
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  • Of course, if a 'saint' was 'canonized' by an antipope, who holds no authority in the Catholic Church, then such a person, although it is still possible that they are in heaven, could very well have been manifestly non-Catholic whose damnation is morally certain, as can be seen from many post V2 'canonizations'.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 04:13:13 PM »
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  • No point in quoting St. Robert to CM, he considers him a heretic.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 04:20:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    Dogmatic ѕυιcιdє is denying ex cathedra decrees.


    Dogmatic ѕυιcιdє is twisting ex cathedra decrees around to support your hobbyhorse.

    Quote

    A pope does not say in a canonization "You have to accept this or that doctrine that is contained in a work attributed to this or that saint", but most people want to look at it that way, as though a canonization means the saint himself was never capable of erring, falling into heresy at one point or another, or even being non-Catholic.


    THAT is true, except for the last part about being non-Catholic.  The Church could never canonize a saint who was non-Catholic.  If he had made an error that temporarily took him out of the Church, he would at some point have recanted and been restituted.  How could someone who dies a non-Catholic be canonized?  

    You see, where the soul of an unbaptized catechumen goes after death, despite what Feeneyites tell you, was never a matter for heresy.  It was an opinion.  The Church never told you that you MUST believe all unbaptized catechumens go to hell.  Never, despite their use of chop-logic to make it appear so.

    Now it is a dogma that unbaptized catechumens MAY be saved.  Not will, but may -- that is why they are buried in consecrated ground.  And the Feeneyites are denying this dogma.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #9 on: September 02, 2009, 04:33:03 PM »
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  • About Bellarmine, it doesn't even matter if he was not a heretic.  No saint is infallible, and their opinions are simply human speculation.

    Quote from: Raoul76
    Now it is a dogma that unbaptized catechumens MAY be saved.  Not will, but may -- that is why they are buried in consecrated ground.  And the Feeneyites are denying this dogma.


    No it is not, but I would be interested in seeing why you make such an assertion.  Which dogmatic teaching did you reference to come up with this new dogma?

    Quote from: Pope Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Council, infallibly
    There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.


    A catechumen is not "of the faithful".  In fact the tradition of the Church has been to have the Mass of the Catechumens, and then the Mass of the Faithful, which catechumens were not to partake in.

    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 04:34:59 PM »
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  • Sorry.  Here you go (easier to read):

    About Bellarmine, it doesn't even matter if he was not a heretic.  No saint is infallible, and their opinions are simply human speculation.

    Quote from: Raoul76
    Now it is a dogma that unbaptized catechumens MAY be saved.  Not will, but may -- that is why they are buried in consecrated ground.  And the Feeneyites are denying this dogma.


    No it is not, but I would be interested in seeing why you make such an assertion.  Which dogmatic teaching did you reference to come up with this new dogma?

    Quote from: Pope Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Council, infallibly
    There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.


    A catechumen is not "of the faithful".  In fact the tradition of the Church has been to have the Mass of the Catechumens, and then the Mass of the Faithful, which catechumens were not to partake in.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #11 on: September 02, 2009, 04:59:23 PM »
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  • It appears after some research that we are not obligated to believe that the canonizations of saints are infallible.  

    I do believe it, but we are not obligated to.

    Some people say, and CM appears to be one of them, that Popes are only infallible when teaching on matters of faith and morals from the Magisterium and that canonizations do not fall into that heading.  Since revelation was completed at the time of the Apostles, and the apostles leave no clues about the canonization of saints, that leads us to the conclusion that Popes can err in canonizing saints.

    Where does it say that the Pope is infallible in the Apostolic revelation, though?  "You are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my Church."  Fair enough.  How about the fact that the apostles infallibly recognized EACH OTHER as apostles, and therefore, as saints?  Would not this suggest that a Pope and Successor of St. Peter infallibly recognizes saints as saints?  

    Okay, it's not a dogma yet.  But I think there might be proof in apostolic revelation that the Pope is infallible when canonizing saints.  I believe this will be revealed one day.

    Quote
    Certainly God allows the devil to perpetrate fraudulent 'miracles', and if these are investigated they are certainly easily discovered as being so.  I would not doubt that the devil uses such 'miracles' for the purpose of leading souls astray.


    We are skeptical about miracles and stigmata because our time is so full of hoaxes, as Christ predicted it would be.  But someone like St. Francis didn't just bear stigmata, he went out and risked his life to convert Muslims, he did all kinds of great works.  The modern Catholic is besieged with false prophecy and false miracles but don't let that make you think that the miracles of the canonized saints are just debased pieces of cheap theater like most of the "miracles" of our own time.

    ***

    But you are right that the saints can err.  I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but St. Thomas was skeptical about the Immaculate Conception, as were St. Bonaventure and St. Bernard.  They were wrong, but forgivably so, because the Immaculate Conception was not yet a dogma.  

    And guess what?  It was never a dogma that all the unbaptized go to hell, despite how you try to make it sound.  Some people felt they did; others kept their own counsel and left it to God to judge.  

    After several more centuries, it is now dogma that the unbaptized may -- MAY -- indeed be saved.  You know the arguments, so I will spare you the Catechism of your proposed anti-Pope from 1917 and our side's interpretation of the Council of Trent.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #12 on: September 02, 2009, 05:01:51 PM »
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  • Judas may throw off my idea about the apostles infallibly recognizing each other as apostles, but then, the Holy Ghost had not yet descended at that time.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline CM

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    Infallibility of Canonizations
    « Reply #13 on: September 02, 2009, 06:16:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Where does it say that the Pope is infallible in the Apostolic revelation, though?  "You are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my Church."  Fair enough.


    You should know this:


    Quote from: And the Lord
    Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.



    Quote from: Raoul76
    How about the fact that the apostles infallibly recognized EACH OTHER as apostles, and therefore, as saints?  Would not this suggest that a Pope and Successor of St. Peter infallibly recognizes saints as saints?

    Okay, it's not a dogma yet.  But I think there might be proof in apostolic revelation that the Pope is infallible when canonizing saints.  I believe this will be revealed one day.


    But that contradicts the decree from the Vatican Council.

    Quote from: It
    For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,


    Your argument is illogical.  You are saying that MAYBE it is part of the Apostolic revelation, or Deposit of Faith, that the Popes and successors of St. Peter may be able to infallibly recognize who is a saint.

    But your argument fails because the sanctity of St. Bernard is not contained in the Apostolic revelation.  The sanctity of St. Thomas Aquinas is not contained in the Deposit of Faith.  You would have to argue that they were.

    Quote
    but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.


    Quote from: Raoul76
    We are skeptical about miracles and stigmata because our time is so full of hoaxes, as Christ predicted it would be.  But someone like St. Francis didn't just bear stigmata, he went out and risked his life to convert Muslims, he did all kinds of great works.


    Very good.  You judge the miracles by the life of the individual.

    Quote from: Raoul76
    After several more centuries, it is now dogma that the unbaptized may -- MAY -- indeed be saved.  You know the arguments, so I will spare you the Catechism of your proposed anti-Pope from 1917 and our side's interpretation of the Council of Trent.  


    First of all, Pope Pius X was not an antipope, not did he live in 1917.

    Second of all, a Catechism that was written by various bishops and compiled by the Cardinal Vicar and finally approved in forma communi by a pope does not gain the note of infallibility.

    You were probably referring to 'Canon Law' anyway.  Well even then, if you wanted to believe that it was infallible and that antipope Benedict XV was not an antipope, then your reasoning would still be wrong.

    Infallibility can only be cited when a pope intends to bind ALL the faithful to obedience, according to the decree of Pope Pius IX,

    Quote from: which
    ...we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.


    Quote from: Heretical '1917 Code of Canon Law'
    Canon 1: Although in the Code of Canon Law the discipline of the Oriental Church is frequently referenced, nevertheless, this [Code] applies only to the Latin Church and does not bind the Oriental, unless it treats of things that, by their nature, apply to the Oriental."

    Offline CM

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    « Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 11:46:17 PM »
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  • Raoul76, show some humility and honesty, and stop ignoring important points.