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Author Topic: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel  (Read 2055 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2021, 08:25:47 AM »
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  • Are you saying St. Robert Bellarmine misunderstood what he read in the Fathers? :jester:

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #16 on: April 26, 2021, 11:02:37 AM »
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  • The Church has never defined (but needs to) indefectibility, and how it does, or does not, mesh with infallibility.  So this discussion will never reach a conclusion.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #17 on: April 26, 2021, 01:26:40 PM »
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  • Are you saying St. Robert Bellarmine misunderstood what he read in the Fathers? :jester:

    What I am saying is not a single one of them said a manifest heretic is ipso facto deposed, and not a single one of them supported his position.  If you disagree, please show which quotation Bellarmine quoted or referenced that supports his position.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #18 on: April 26, 2021, 02:12:20 PM »
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  • What I am saying is not a single one of them said a manifest heretic is ipso facto deposed, and not a single one of them supported his position.  If you disagree, please show which quotation Bellarmine quoted or referenced that supports his position.
    .
    Okay, but St. Robert Bellarmine said, "This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics soon [mox — better translation: immediately] lose all jurisdiction, and namely St. Cyprian who speaks on Novation ..." If you disagree with St. Robert Bellarmine about what the ancient Fathers teach, that's a matter between you and him.
    .
    I'm definitely not going to get into a debate with anyone about whether a Doctor of the Church understands the Fathers of the Church correctly. I don't think a question like that is within the realm of what is acceptable to be debated.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #19 on: April 26, 2021, 03:06:02 PM »
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  • I've read True or False Pope, and they don't say Bellarmine and Cajetan held the same opinion.  On the contrary, they do a very good job explaining the difference between the two opinions.

    No, of course they don't SAY that, but their novel "interpretation" of Bellarmine's position makes it into the same position as what Cajetan held.  I've read several theologians characterize Bellarmine's position exactly as sedevacantists understand it.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #20 on: April 26, 2021, 03:41:56 PM »
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  • .
    Okay, but St. Robert Bellarmine said, "This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics soon [mox — better translation: immediately] lose all jurisdiction, and namely St. Cyprian who speaks on Novation ..." If you disagree with St. Robert Bellarmine about what the ancient Fathers teach, that's a matter between you and him.
    .
    I'm definitely not going to get into a debate with anyone about whether a Doctor of the Church understands the Fathers of the Church correctly. I don't think a question like that is within the realm of what is acceptable to be debated.

    I will explain how Bellarmine was trying to defend his position, and it is not what most people think.  The first thing to realize is that none of the Fathers taught that "manifest heretics are ipso facto deposed".  That's why Bellarmine was unable to quote any who taught it.

    What the Fathers did teach is that 1) heretics (meaning those who were visibly separated from the Church) and also schismatics (who were visibly separated from the Church) were outside of the Church; and 2) because they were outside of the Church they lacked jurisdiction. The reason it was necessary for Bellarmine to establish point #1 is because some theologians in Bellarmine's day held that heretics and schismatics who had publicly left the Church, or were never in the Church, were still part of the Church.  Bellarmine proved that the Fathers taught otherwise.  If they were separated from communion with the Church, they were not part of the Church.

    But it is one thing to say a heretic who is outside the Church lacks jurisdiction, and another to say a Catholic bishop who falls into heresy loses jurisdiction.  Not having jurisdiction is one thing; losing it is another.   Joel Osteen is a heretic who lacks jurisdiction, not because he lost it, but because he never had it.

    What the quotations that Bellarmine references from St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, Optatus, St. Ambrose, and the two others from St. Cyprian that he quotes confirm, is that those who are outside the Church lack jurisdiction.  And the quotations from St. Cyprian and Ambrose were both referring to Novation, who never had jurisdiction to begin with.  Nothing in any of those quotes speaks of how someone who possessed jurisdiction in the Church would lose it if he fell into heresy and/or left the Church.

    What Bellarmine was trying to argue is that since the Fathers all taught that heretics and schismatics (who were visibly separated from the Church) lacked jurisdiction, if a Pope was outside the Church, he too would lack jurisdiction.  The problem, as noted above, is that lacking jurisdiction and losing jurisdiction are two different things.  

    The only example Bellarmine used of a bishops who possessed jurisdiction before losing it was Nestorius, but if anything, the case of Nestorius refutes Bellarmine's position.  Nestorius wasn't ipso facto deposed.  He retained his office from the day he first preached his new heresy (Christmas of 428), until he was deposed by the Council of Ephesus (July 431).  Between those two date, Nestorius had been issued to formal warnings by St. Cyril, the Patriarch of Alexandria, he had been judged by the Pope during a council held in Rome (August 430), and had been issued a third and final warning by the Pope via St. Cyril, following the Council, giving him 10 days to renounce his heresies. Up to that point, Nestorius remained "in communion with the Church," according to the Pope himself. And when the Pope learned that the emperor had called a council to consider the matter, he agreed to suspended the sentence of deposition that he said would take effect after the 10 days were up, and allowed Nestorius to remain in is see until the Council rendered a judgement.   Only then was Nestorius deposed.

    That is the only example Bellarmine referenced of a bishop who lost his jurisdiction.   And the only aspect of the story Bellarmine related is that after the Pope judged Nestorius at the Council of Rome (August 430), he wrote to those who had been excommunicate by Nestorius to let them know the excommunications that had been pronounced against them were null.    

    To say the least, Bellarmine completely failed to prove his position.  He didn't provide one convincing argument in favor of it or quote any authority who supported it.  Again, if you disagree, point out anything Bellarmine wrote that you find convincing, or any authority he cited that you believe supports his position.


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #21 on: April 27, 2021, 09:46:07 PM »
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  • I will explain how Bellarmine was trying to defend his position, and it is not what most people think.  The first thing to realize is that none of the Fathers taught that "manifest heretics are ipso facto deposed".  That's why Bellarmine was unable to quote any who taught it.

    What the Fathers did teach is that 1) heretics (meaning those who were visibly separated from the Church) and also schismatics (who were visibly separated from the Church) were outside of the Church; and 2) because they were outside of the Church they lacked jurisdiction. The reason it was necessary for Bellarmine to establish point #1 is because some theologians in Bellarmine's day held that heretics and schismatics who had publicly left the Church, or were never in the Church, were still part of the Church.  Bellarmine proved that the Fathers taught otherwise.  If they were separated from communion with the Church, they were not part of the Church.

    But it is one thing to say a heretic who is outside the Church lacks jurisdiction, and another to say a Catholic bishop who falls into heresy loses jurisdiction.  Not having jurisdiction is one thing; losing it is another.   Joel Osteen is a heretic who lacks jurisdiction, not because he lost it, but because he never had it.

    What the quotations that Bellarmine references from St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, Optatus, St. Ambrose, and the two others from St. Cyprian that he quotes confirm, is that those who are outside the Church lack jurisdiction.  And the quotations from St. Cyprian and Ambrose were both referring to Novation, who never had jurisdiction to begin with.  Nothing in any of those quotes speaks of how someone who possessed jurisdiction in the Church would lose it if he fell into heresy and/or left the Church.

    What Bellarmine was trying to argue is that since the Fathers all taught that heretics and schismatics (who were visibly separated from the Church) lacked jurisdiction, if a Pope was outside the Church, he too would lack jurisdiction.  The problem, as noted above, is that lacking jurisdiction and losing jurisdiction are two different things.  

    The only example Bellarmine used of a bishops who possessed jurisdiction before losing it was Nestorius, but if anything, the case of Nestorius refutes Bellarmine's position.  Nestorius wasn't ipso facto deposed.  He retained his office from the day he first preached his new heresy (Christmas of 428), until he was deposed by the Council of Ephesus (July 431).  Between those two date, Nestorius had been issued to formal warnings by St. Cyril, the Patriarch of Alexandria, he had been judged by the Pope during a council held in Rome (August 430), and had been issued a third and final warning by the Pope via St. Cyril, following the Council, giving him 10 days to renounce his heresies. Up to that point, Nestorius remained "in communion with the Church," according to the Pope himself. And when the Pope learned that the emperor had called a council to consider the matter, he agreed to suspended the sentence of deposition that he said would take effect after the 10 days were up, and allowed Nestorius to remain in is see until the Council rendered a judgement.   Only then was Nestorius deposed.

    That is the only example Bellarmine referenced of a bishop who lost his jurisdiction.   And the only aspect of the story Bellarmine related is that after the Pope judged Nestorius at the Council of Rome (August 430), he wrote to those who had been excommunicate by Nestorius to let them know the excommunications that had been pronounced against them were null.    

    To say the least, Bellarmine completely failed to prove his position.  He didn't provide one convincing argument in favor of it or quote any authority who supported it.  Again, if you disagree, point out anything Bellarmine wrote that you find convincing, or any authority he cited that you believe supports his position.
    They revoked everything nestorious did once he became a heretic, exactly because he didn't have jurisdiction to do any of it.  What kind of nonsense you peddling?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #22 on: April 27, 2021, 10:10:46 PM »
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  • They revoked everything nestorious did once he became a heretic, exactly because he didn't have jurisdiction to do any of it.  What kind of nonsense you peddling?

    Nay, rather, the Pope declared that his acts never had any effect; this was declaratory on the Pope's part.  He did not lift the excommunication, but declared these excommunications to have been invalid from the time Nestorius began to preach heresy (rather than from his formal deposition).

    I believe that the Nestorius episode actually backs sedeprivationism, where on account of his manifest heresy, Nestorius lacked authority even before he officially (materially) lost his office.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Indefectiblity: Fr. Cekada v. Fr. Chazel
    « Reply #23 on: April 28, 2021, 08:49:20 AM »
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  • I believe that the Nestorius episode actually backs sedeprivationism, where on account of his manifest heresy, Nestorius lacked authority even before he officially (materially) lost his office.

    Agreed.  It also provides an excellent case study supporting attendance at masses offered "una cuм" this or that manifestly heretical but yet-to-be-judged bishop or pontiff.  
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."