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Author Topic: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction  (Read 9228 times)

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Offline Veritas et Caritas

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Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2023, 12:59:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bl Alojzije Stepinac on April 12, 2023, 12:25:20 PM
     
    There are changes in rites, but who can say 100 % it's not valid because of that?
    Quote from: Bl Alojzije Stepinac on April 12, 2023, 12:25:20 PM
    God ask from all of us humility, in this confusion we can't believe ourselves or rely easily on others to make clear and correct conclusion. I may be wrong, I admit.
    All we have are opinions, who can be erronious or correct. than for Paul VI. and John Paul II.

    The real problem is that the arguments against the validity or the new rites are extremely weak and replete with errors.  The validity of the new rites, as such, is 100% certain.  Not only can this be proven by reason, namely, by showing that they clearly meet the criterion for validity, but it is also proven by faith, since infallibility extends to the doctrinal judgment of disciplinary laws in such a way that, in the case of rites promulgated by the Church, it prevents the Church from promulgating a rite that lacks the requisite conditions for validity.  



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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #61 on: April 12, 2023, 01:02:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 12:59:27 PM
    The real problem is that the arguments against the validity or the new rites are extremely weak and replete with errors.  The validity of the new rites, as such, is 100% certain.  Not only can this be proven by reason, namely, by showing that they clearly meet the criterion for validity, but it is also proven by faith, since infallibility extends to the doctrinal judgment of disciplinary laws in such a way that, in the case of rites promulgated by the Church, it prevents the Church from promulgating a rite that lacks the requisite conditions for validity. 
    Do you attend the Novus Ordo mass?
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    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #62 on: April 12, 2023, 01:10:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bl Alojzije Stepinac on April 12, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
     
    Could you explain me how they can retain power of order if that Anglican or Lutheran order is invalid, null and void declared by pope Saint Leo XIII.?

    A person retains the power or order. The reason the Anglican and Lutherans lack the power or order is not because validly ordained men lost it, but because the Anglican rite itself was invalid, which means it does not confer the power or orders upon the one being "ordained".  The other reason is because only a validly consecrated bishop can make another man a bishop.  So, even if the Anglicans used the Catholic rite of consecration, it would be invalid, since the minister (a layman who mistakenly thinks he's a bishops) is not capable of validly consecrating a bishop.

    The reason the Lutherans lack valid orders is because Luther was only a priest, and as a mere priest, he was not capable of consecrating a bishop. The Lutheran priesthood died out when Luther died.
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    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #63 on: April 12, 2023, 01:10:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 12, 2023, 01:02:11 PM
    Do you attend the Novus Ordo mass?

    No
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #64 on: April 12, 2023, 01:29:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 12:59:27 PM
    The real problem is that the arguments against the validity or the new rites are extremely weak and replete with errors.  The validity of the new rites, as such, is 100% certain.  Not only can this be proven by reason, namely, by showing that they clearly meet the criterion for validity, but it is also proven by faith, since infallibility extends to the doctrinal judgment of disciplinary laws in such a way that, in the case of rites promulgated by the Church, it prevents the Church from promulgating a rite that lacks the requisite conditions for validity. 

    :facepalm:  Nonsense.  There's plenty there to establish positive doubt about the New Rites, changes to the essential form, to the adjuncta of the Rites, and the Rite of Episcopal Consecration is an unmitigated disaster, almost certainly invalid.

    I agree with the principle that the Pope cannot promulgate invalid rites, but you're begging the question that these men are legitimate popes ... which is far from certain, and most likely not the case.  So the doubtfulness of the New Rites is yet another indicator (not proof, since there's a logical feedback loop), but an indicator that is anothet dot confirming that the V2 papal claimants are not legitimate popes.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #65 on: April 12, 2023, 01:31:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 11:43:00 AM
    The hierarchy is the body of men vested with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, which they received from the Pope.

    Sure, the authority to teach error and heresy, and to de-sanctify ... those are the marks of the false apostate Conciliar Church, not of the Catholic Church.
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    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #66 on: April 12, 2023, 01:32:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on April 12, 2023, 11:08:11 AM
    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.  "Per se" or "by its very nature" means that this applies to any Catholic, including the pope.

    Can you define "public sin of formal manifest heresy?" And more importantly, can you quote an authority who defines it, or an authority who even uses that specific phrase?   I have never seen the phrase used by a theologian.  The first person I saw who used it was Fr. Paul Kramer. 

    By formal, do you mean formal in a theological sense (i.e., guilty of the sin of heresy) or in a canonical sense (i.e., declared a heretic by legitimate authority)?  Terms must be clearly defined before they can be applied to individual cases.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #67 on: April 12, 2023, 01:34:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 12:02:33 PM
    Since a hierarchy requires bishops with ordinary jurisdiction, and since bishop can only receive jurisdiction from the Pope, the only candidate for the Church with four marks is the universal Church based on Rome, which is one and the same institution that existed during the pontificate of Pius XII and the Pontificate of St. Peter.

    :laugh1:  You're kidding with the bolded, right?  If Pius XII, or St. Pius X, or St. Pius V had been time-warped to today, they would certainly not recognize the Conciliar Abomination as the Catholic Church, but would think it was some Protestant sect.

    There's nothing there but some loose material continuity, but the Conciliar Church is simply unrecognizable as the Catholic Church in its essential characteristics.  All it has is a bunch of guys parading around in a variety of different-colored cassocks.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #68 on: April 12, 2023, 01:35:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 01:10:39 PM
    No

    Why not?  Bergoglio told you to.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #69 on: April 12, 2023, 01:36:22 PM »
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    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #70 on: April 12, 2023, 01:37:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 12, 2023, 01:29:13 PM
    :facepalm:  Nonsense.  There's plenty there to establish positive doubt about the New Rites, changes to the essential form, to the adjuncta of the Rites, and the Rite of Episcopal Consecration is an unmitigated disaster, almost certainly invalid.

    Then you should have no problem producing the evidence.  Please explain what is required for a valid form and then show why the new rites lack it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #71 on: April 12, 2023, 01:40:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 12, 2023, 01:36:22 PM
    Why not?

    ETA: LOL Lad...jinx!

    And the timestamp matches to the second.  I must have posted milliseconds before you did.
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    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #72 on: April 12, 2023, 01:43:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 12, 2023, 01:31:48 PM
    Sure, the authority to teach error and heresy, and to de-sanctify ... those are the marks of the false apostate Conciliar Church, not of the Catholic Church.

    Define what you mean by the Conciliar Church and explain how it differs from the diocese and eparchies throughout the word that are in union with the local Church of Rome.  Also please explain where the Catholic Church with four marks was in January of 1966, and where it - the Catholic Church with four marks - can be found today.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #73 on: April 12, 2023, 01:45:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 01:37:00 PM
    Then you should have no problem producing the evidence.  Please explain what is required for a valid form and then show why the new rites lack it.

    This has been dealt with 100 times.  Pius XII declared what's required for the essential form.  Novus Ordo removed a word from the essential form that speaks to the Sacramental effect.  Pius XII declared that invocation of the Holy Ghost along with explanation of the Sacramental effect of that invocation (performed by the "ut" clause) are at the core of the essential form.  On top of that the very same adjuncta that Leo XIII declared to be invalidating by themselves (even if the essential form had remained intact) of the Anglican Rite of Ordination have been excised from the NO Rite.  Certainly enough there to constitute positive doubt when you tamper with the essential form as declared by Pius XII.  As for episcopal consecration, the entire Rite was replaced with what mostly resembles the installation of a Patriarch (who was already a consecrated bishop), and the spiritum principalem allegedly signifying the episcopacy has not precedent for signifying that and is ambiguous at best.

    Feel free to peruse Father Cekada's lengthy study on the episcopal consecration, and Father William Jenkins' treatment of the Rite of Ordination.

    We don't have to prove that they're invalid.  We need merely to establish positive doubt, for which there is evidence in abundance.  Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that there is no positive doubt ... which you can't do.  Really your only true argument has to do with your begging the question that the V2 papal claimants are popes, which also remains in extreme positive doubt.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #74 on: April 12, 2023, 01:51:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on April 12, 2023, 01:43:00 PM
    Define what you mean by the Conciliar Church and explain how it differs from the diocese and eparchies throughout the word that are in union with the local Church of Rome.  Also please explain where the Catholic Church with four marks was in January of 1966, and where it - the Catholic Church with four marks - can be found today. 

    Enjoy.

    https://wmreview.co.uk/2021/12/24/archbishop-lefebvre-conciliar-church-part-iii/
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