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Author Topic: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction  (Read 9160 times)

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Offline Veritas et Caritas

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Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2023, 11:43:00 AM »
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  • The whole fallacious "argument" falls at the fact that the hierarchy is the system of authority while the hierarchs are men who occupy those positions.


    The hierarchy is completely intact, it's the same as always, it's just that the hierarchs are missing.


    Also, when Christ founded the Church it consisted of just a few people and it was still visible and hierarchical even though they didn't even have any buildings or any recognition.


    Once you stop conflating the hierarchy with the hierarchs you will see the whole issue evaporates.

    The hierarchy is the body of men vested with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, which they received from the Pope.  The hierarchy is the most essential aspect of the mark of apostolicity.  No hierarchy = no Church with four marks, and no Church with four marks means the gates of hell have prevailed.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #46 on: April 12, 2023, 11:52:09 AM »
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  • The hierarchy is the body of men vested with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, which they received from the Pope.  The hierarchy is the most essential aspect of the mark of apostolicity.  No hierarchy = no Church with four marks, and no Church with four marks means the gates of hell have prevailed.
    What church has all 4 marks?  Surely not the Vatican II church.  


    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #47 on: April 12, 2023, 11:54:02 AM »
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  • Can we have moral certainty about the validity of sacraments or can we not?

    If we can't be certain about Thuc's consecration what's stopping us from questioning Lefebvre's and everyone elses?

    You must prove the consecration was invalid, otherwise it's valid. Where's the proof?

    Can you prove the new rite of ordination or episcopal consecration is invalid?  I've never seen any proof or even persuasive evidence for the invalidity of either, and I have been studying the issue for decades.  Can you explain in your own words why you believe either of the two have been proven invalid?  

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #48 on: April 12, 2023, 11:58:23 AM »
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  • The hierarchy is the body of men vested with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, which they received from the Pope.  The hierarchy is the most essential aspect of the mark of apostolicity.  No hierarchy = no Church with four marks, and no Church with four marks means the gates of hell have prevailed.
    Actually the death-dealing tongues of heretics are the gates of Hell per the Council of Florence.

    And the hierarchy is not the "body of men", those are the hierarchs. 

    And wrong again, the hierarchy is not the most essential aspect of apostolicity it is the apostolic faith.

    Does the Vatican II sect have the apostolic faith?

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #49 on: April 12, 2023, 12:02:18 PM »
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  • Can you prove the new rite of ordination or episcopal consecration is invalid?  I've never seen any proof or even persuasive evidence for the invalidity of either, and I have been studying the issue for decades.  Can you explain in your own words why you believe either of the two have been proven invalid? 
    You're conflating two issues. If there is a positive doubt as to the form of the sacrament it must be treated as invalid, that's the case with NO consecrations and ordinations.

    And yes, it is certain the ordination is invalid per Apostolicae Curae and consecration per Sacramentum Ordinis. If we didn't have those two docuмents we could call them doubtful and treat them as invalid but since we do have them we can be certain they are invalid.

    On the other hand, when we know that the minister is using a valid rite we assume it's valid until proven otherwise.

    Do you go to the altar to check each time whether the priest said HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM correctly?

    P.S. If you're interested in seeing the proofs for yourself see: Absolutely Null and Utterly Void by Fr. Cekada which proves beyond any doubt the NO consecrations are invalid and the Dimond brothers have a couple of different ways of proving the ordination is invalid, the primary argument is from Apostolicae Curae, search their site for key terms.


    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #50 on: April 12, 2023, 12:02:33 PM »
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  • What church has all 4 marks?  Surely not the Vatican II church. 

    Since a hierarchy requires bishops with ordinary jurisdiction, and since bishop can only receive jurisdiction from the Pope, the only candidate for the Church with four marks is the universal Church based on Rome, which is one and the same institution that existed during the pontificate of Pius XII and the Pontificate of St. Peter. If that is what you mean by "the Vatican II church," then the Vatican II church is indeed still the Church with four marks.  If it lacks the four marks, the only conclusion you can draw is that a Church with four marks no longer exists.  And if that is the case, the Church founded by Christ - the one outside of which there is no salvation - no longer exists. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #51 on: April 12, 2023, 12:03:02 PM »
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  • I've seen that but I was unable to find an explanation of how the dispensation to consecrate bishops whenever functions in the sources cited because I couldn't find them.

    I found the fact that Archbishop Thuc could consecrate bishops with papal approval decades into the crisis a marvelous act of Providence and it just might be the way ordinary jurisdiction was preserved. Who knows.
    Agreed.  It is interesting that so many attack him/his consecrations.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #52 on: April 12, 2023, 12:05:01 PM »
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  • Uggh.  I think the new PaxVobis screen name should be changed.  I keep thinking I'm speaking to the old Pax Vobis.


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #53 on: April 12, 2023, 12:06:33 PM »
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  • Agreed.  It is interesting that so many attack him/his consecrations.
    Archbishop Thuc is underrated, as the kids would say :D

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #54 on: April 12, 2023, 12:06:59 PM »
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  • You're conflating two issues. If there is a positive doubt as to the form of the sacrament it must be treated as invalid, that's the case with NO consecrations and ordinations.

    And yes, it is certain the ordination is invalid per Apostolicae Curae and consecration per Sacramentum Ordinis. If we didn't have those two docuмents we could call them doubtful and treat them as invalid but since we do have them we can be certain they are invalid.

    On the other hand, when we know that the minister is using a valid rite we assume it's valid until proven otherwise.

    Do you go to the altar to check each time whether the priest said HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM correctly?

    Nothing in Apostolic Curae proves or even suggests that the new rite of ordination is invalid, neither does anything in Sacramentum Ordinis.  To simplify this, explain what is required for a valid form and then show why the form of the new rite or ordination and consecration doesn't meet the criterion. 

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #55 on: April 12, 2023, 12:24:27 PM »
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  • Actually the death-dealing tongues of heretics are the gates of Hell per the Council of Florence.

    And the hierarchy is not the "body of men", those are the hierarchs.

    Just to clarify, are you saying the hierarchy consists of the offices (the episcopal sees) and the men who occupy them are the hierarchs?  Is that the distinction that you are making? 

    Quote
    And wrong again, the hierarchy is not the most essential aspect of apostolicity it is the apostolic faith.

    That is exactly what the Protestant reformers said. The Catholics, such a Bellarmine, refuted them by explaining why the apostolic faith does not meet even the criterion for a mark.  Apostolic succession and apostolicity of membership/origin are the essential aspects of the mark of apostolicity.  Apostolic succession, which consists of the body of bishops who have been legitimately appointed to an episcopal see - one that was established by an Apostle or a subsequent Pope and which has remained in union with the Church of Rome - and the body of faithful subject to them; this unequal society of rulers and subjects, which is numerically one and the same moral body that has existed since the days of the Apostles, is the mark of apostolicity.  And since this moral body of rulers and subjects is the indefectible Church that Christ founded and promised to be with "until the consummation of the world," it will always retain apostolicity of doctrine.   




    Offline Bl Alojzije Stepinac

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #56 on: April 12, 2023, 12:25:20 PM »
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  •    
     
    It seems to me that they also retain the power of orders since this is also linked indirectly to the power of jurisdiction, while directly only to the apostolic succession. The Church has always been very careful before affirming that a validly consecrated Bishop has lost the power of orders after becoming a heretic. Since Protestantism (1517), she still has not declared the sacraments of Lutheran bishops invalid; and only after 300 years did Leo XIII declare the Anglican orders to be invalid. Certainly the same criteria should be applied to the power of orders of the conciliar Popes: It is at the least very early to place in doubt the validity of the sacraments ministered by them.

    I can't believe that so much effort some traditional catholics took to investigate and defend ordinations and consecrations of Thuc bishops. But just after one or two reading of the text of new rite of consecration or ordination, they are assured that it must be invalid. 
    It's not logical nor sincere. Okay, let's say that I presume validity of Thuc consecrations and all ordinations. Why it would be different than Novus ordo ordinations and consecrations?ć
    Thare are changes in rites, but who can say 100 % it's not valid because of that?
    God ask from all of us humility, in this confusion we can't believe ourselves or rely easily on others to make clear and correct conclusion. I may be wrong, I admit.
    All we have are opinions, who can be erronious or correct. 
    Maybe if the prophecy of three days of darkness come true, and Peter and Paul come down from Hevean and designate a true pope (Angelic Pontiff), who will publish full text of Third Secret of Fatima, consecrate Russia to Our Lady's Immacate Heart, that would be only way I see it from sedevacantist point of view. 
    We can have one, two or more "false" popes, heretics and apostates, and what would remain from hierarchy if all priests, bishops and cardinals in Novus Ordo are invalid because of the new rites of sacrament?
    Indeed, may it will happen just in that way. I know that with this divisions in traditional catholic circles, and sedevacantists, there wouldn't be one pope for all to agree on. That's why some claim that the last valid pope was Pius V., for others are Pius X. and mostly Pius XII. Bishop Sanborn hold theological novel position that pope can be material and not formal. It contradicts Church teaching from Vatican I council. 


    This opinions have the same level of authority, or lack of it. 
    It would really have to be something miraculous, impossible to deny to solve this crisis. Our Lady of Good Success said that the restoration of Catholic Church will begin after everything would seem to be lost. It would seem that Catholic Church has disappeared, Our Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross. With all those wounds, blood and shameful death on the Cross, He showed what His Church would have to go through. I believe in the coming of Age of Peace, Great Monarch, restoration of Christendom, and it would last maybe 40-50 years before coming of Antichrist. 
    Prophecies of Our Lady indicate this, and prophecies given to Marie Julie Jahenny, bl. Anne Katerina Emmerick also point to apostasy, false church, Vatican II, etc.
    Church is indefectible, there are real, strong arguments for sedevacantism, but for me it's risky for salvation of souls. There will be more changes to Novus ordo mass, more heresies, maybe changes in rites of sacraments again.
    I don't believe that Francis is the pope, this is way to much to swallow, even more than for Paul VI. and John Paul II. 

    Regardless, we need to pray for his conversion at least. So many Catholics are still duped by heretic popes, bishops, let's pray for them to discover and practise true, traditional Catholic faith.
    Sorry for offtopic, I can't write short post, for some reason....

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #57 on: April 12, 2023, 12:33:52 PM »
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  •  
     
    It seems to me that they also retain the power of orders since this is also linked indirectly to the power of jurisdiction, while directly only to the apostolic succession. The Church has always been very careful before affirming that a validly consecrated Bishop has lost the power of orders after becoming a heretic. 

    They do retain the power of orders. The indelible character that is conferred by ordination is permanent, just like the baptismal character.  It remains for all eternity, even if the priest or bishop goes to hell.   

    Offline Bl Alojzije Stepinac

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #58 on: April 12, 2023, 12:49:59 PM »
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  •    
    Could you explain me how they can retain power of order if that Anglican or Lutheran order is invalid, null and void declared by pope Saint Leo XIII.?



    They do retain the power of orders. The indelible character that is conferred by ordination is permanent, just like the baptismal character.  It remains for all eternity, even if the priest or bishop goes to hell. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Indefectibility requires a hierarchy with the power of jurisidisdiction
    « Reply #59 on: April 12, 2023, 12:54:58 PM »
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  • Actually the death-dealing tongues of heretics are the gates of Hell per the Council of Florence.

    Where in the Council of Florence is the definition of the Gates of Hell determined to mean the 'tongues of heretics'? I looked through the sessions of that Council, and didn't see it addressed, but maybe I missed it. Can you name which session of the Council defined this?

    EcuмENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445) | EWTN

    And if the Council did define the gates of hell to mean the tongues of heretics, might that not lend credence to the idea that the Church will not fail due to the actions of heretics?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29