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Author Topic: More heresy from anti-Pope  (Read 199452 times)

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Online WorldsAway

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Re: More heresy from anti-Pope
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 05:32:00 PM »
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  • I agree that the modernist understanding of EENS does not 100% lead to the uber-level of modernism that V2 clerics hold in new-rome.

    However...if you take +ABL's view on salvation and you subtract the "shock of V2's new liturgy" then what we have is (50 years later), +Fellay saying that V2 is 95% ok, because the only differences between +ABL and V2 are:

    1.  Liturgy/TLM vs new mass
    2.  A slight difference on EENS
    And this is, as worded, heretical.

    1) the Gospel of John, chapter 1 says that Christ "enlightens all those who enter the world".  Thus, infallibly, we know that ALL MEN have a knowledge of the natural law.
    2) St Paul tells us that God "wishes all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth".
    3) The Catholic adage of "grace builds on nature" is a truism, if not a dogma.
    4) Ergo, all men are born with knowledge of the natural law.  If they follow the natural law, God will give them more grace.  As they get more grace, they will be given knowledge of the Faith.
    5) As St Thomas says, those who are in error, are so, due to sin.
    6) Ergo, those who do not know of Our Lord or of the Faith, are ignorant due to their OWN SINS.
    7) Ergo, the idea of invincible ignorance is both contrary to Scripture and an impossibility.
    Yeah, what +Fellay said was basically just a paraphrase of Archbishop Lefebvre. So +Fellay wasn't saying anything new compared to the original view of the Society on EENS.

    But ArmandLouis says, and rightly so, that this denial of EENS is condemned by the Church...but to use it solely against +Fellay when +Lefebvre said the same exact thing.. actually even more explicitly than +Fellay..is disingenuousness.
    Almost all of these Traditional clerics were, and are, denying a Dogma that has been defined numerous times. It's really just unfathomable to think about. Like, I hope they erred in 'good faith', believing that it was actually what the Church taught, but it is still very troubling. I know of at most 3 priests who do not hold some form of non-Catholics being saved..how is this even possible.

    I think of EENS like the mortar between all the other Dogmas..when you deny it, everything falls apart. If you deny it, and say that non-Catholics can be saved..people who do not know Christ, who are not members of the Church, who do not have the faith, who do not even explicitly desire Baptism, etc..you are basically saying every other Dogma is just "pretty important", but not necessary. If a non-Catholic can be saved, then nothing the Church has ever taught absolutely matters
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: More heresy from anti-Pope
    « Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 05:51:27 PM »
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  • Yeah, what +Fellay said was basically just a paraphrase of Archbishop Lefebvre. So +Fellay wasn't saying anything new compared to the original view of the Society on EENS.

    But ArmandLouis says, and rightly so, that this denial of EENS is condemned by the Church...but to use it solely against +Fellay when +Lefebvre said the same exact thing.. actually even more explicitly than +Fellay..is disingenuousness.
    Almost all of these Traditional clerics were, and are, denying a Dogma that has been defined numerous times. It's really just unfathomable to think about. Like, I hope they erred in 'good faith', believing that it was actually what the Church taught, but it is still very troubling. I know of at most 3 priests who do not hold some form of non-Catholics being saved..how is this even possible.

    I think of EENS like the mortar between all the other Dogmas..when you deny it, everything falls apart. If you deny it, and say that non-Catholics can be saved..people who do not know Christ, who are not members of the Church, who do not have the faith, who do not even explicitly desire Baptism, etc..you are basically saying every other Dogma is just "pretty important", but not necessary. If a non-Catholic can be saved, then nothing the Church has ever taught absolutely matters
    Good points.