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Author Topic: Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.  (Read 653 times)

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Offline mobius

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Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
« on: March 10, 2014, 10:31:33 PM »
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  • Could a true Pope be a true Pope if he was Never Sacramentally Baptized?



    Offline TKGS

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    Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
    « Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 05:04:19 AM »
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  • Short answer:  No.

    One is not a member of the Church until baptism.  Even those who accept "Baptism of Blood" and "Baptism of Desire" must necessarily agree that such an extraordinary means of justification must make one a member of the Church only at the time of death and not before.

    I remember reading a short biography of Paul VI a few years ago.  I wish I could remember who the author was and where I read it, suffice it to say that it was not Traditio or the Dimond Brothers.  At the time, the author was considered to be credible on Church matters though I can't say if he really was or would be considered to be now since I don't remember who he was.

    The biography claimed that there was no record in the parish archive's of Giovanni Montini's baptism in the village of Concesio, where he was born.  The author did note that many such archives had been destroyed one way or another during the two World Wars that ravaged Europe since his baptism though the author did find it curious that some other contemporaneous records he was researching had not evidently vanished as well.  However, he did not jump to the conclusion that Montini was never baptized, only that there were some irregularities regarding his life.

    I've always been curious that this issue was never pursued.  If evidence can be unearthed that he was never baptized that would surely end all questions regarding the validity of the Vatican Council II and all his works!  But, perhaps, it was merely an oversight of this one author.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
    « Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 06:34:56 AM »
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  • I don't believe that he would qualify even as a "material Pope" under the sedeprivationist theory.

    Offline joe17

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    Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
    « Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 01:13:35 PM »
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  • TKGS,

      The story on Paul VI's baptismal record not being able to be located can be found in Dr Rama Coomaraswamy's "The Destruction of the Christian Tradition."  
      I had the same thoughts as you, it would make it even easier to show that Vatican II could not come from the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
    « Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 01:35:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: joe17
    TKGS,

      The story on Paul VI's baptismal record not being able to be located can be found in Dr Rama Coomaraswamy's "The Destruction of the Christian Tradition."  
      I had the same thoughts as you, it would make it even easier to show that Vatican II could not come from the Church.


    Except that it's impossible to prove a negative.  We'd have to prove that he was never baptized.


    Offline TKGS

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    Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
    « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 02:02:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: joe17
    TKGS,

      The story on Paul VI's baptismal record not being able to be located can be found in Dr Rama Coomaraswamy's "The Destruction of the Christian Tradition."  
      I had the same thoughts as you, it would make it even easier to show that Vatican II could not come from the Church.


    Thanks.  I don't believe I've ever read anything by Coomaraswamy, though I have heard of him.  Perhaps what I had read used this as his source.  I really don't know.  I am glad, though, that someone has finally shown a source on this.  I've spoken of it before but no one I've known has ever heard this which had led me to wonder (if just a little) if my memory about this was faulty.

    Offline crossbro

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    Imagine a Roman Pontiff that was NOT Baptized.
    « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 10:52:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: joe17
    TKGS,

      The story on Paul VI's baptismal record not being able to be located can be found in Dr Rama Coomaraswamy's "The Destruction of the Christian Tradition."  
      I had the same thoughts as you, it would make it even easier to show that Vatican II could not come from the Church.


    I have never heard of a controversy surrounding a baptismal record for Pope Paul VI.

    What I do know is that he was born in a very devout Roman Catholic family and his parents were deeply involved with the Church and dedicated in social issues. The record as it stands was that he was born on Sept 26 1897 and baptized on Sept 30 1897. His parents sent him to a Jesuit School.

    Anyone who would claim that Pope Paul VI was not baptized and that his parents were liars I would have to say that person is a fraud.

    Regardless what he did as pope, calling his parents liars or calling his baptism into question is just not right.