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Author Topic: Imaginations on how the Crisis could come to an end  (Read 4354 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Imaginations on how the Crisis could come to an end
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2024, 04:14:22 PM »
It could happen more organically, too. The majority of Novus Ordo people are boomers, and they'll be dead in 20 years or so anyway, so there won't be much left of the new church by then. And their clergy are in the same position, that there are hardly any new ones being ordained. It's just a matter of time before there are hardly any modernists left.

Of the young or middle aged people who go to the Novus Ordo, they have an average of less than two children, and the large majority of those children do not continue to attend church or practice any religion when they grow up, or at least not the Novus Ordo religion.

On the contrary, all the Novus Ordo conservative groups, especially the ones who use the 1962 missal, show great popularity and generally have lots of children, who generally continue to practice when they grow up. Traditional Catholics have an average of maybe half a dozen children, and they have a high retention rate with their children.

In one or two generations, the position will be reversed -- traditional Catholics (although using the term in a very broad sense) will be in the great majority, and the modernists will be a rare breed. The modernists will have to close so many churches due to lack of attendance (especially once the boomers really start to die off), that it will be as hard to find a local Novus Ordo church then, as it is to find a local traditional Catholic church now, and vice versa.

As far as how this would lead to a restoration of a true pope, I don't have an exact answer, but when you have an image like that it's not hard to come up with various ideas. Maybe they will elect someone who is a lifetime indult person because that's all there is left, or because all the hierarchy are indults by then, and he'll figure out that Vatican 2 was the problem all along and condemn it and all of its adherents starting with the antipopes who promoted it. Assuming he accepts valid episcopal consecration, I don't see why everyone wouldn't accept him as pope, and he would become pope by acclamation of the whole Church, as St. Robert Bellarmine said would be the way to proceed if there are no cardinals and no bishops to elect a pope.

Unfortunately, if you're looking at several generations from here, that means probably none of us will be around to see this, if it happens. :( But the math is simple. Two groups: One group increases by 500% each generation, and the other group decreases by 80% each generation. It doesn't matter how big each one starts out at -- one will pass up the other in numbers fairly quickly.

Re: Imaginations on how the Crisis could come to an end
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2024, 04:53:57 PM »
This was in my spiritial reading for today and seemed appropriate for this thread:

(What will join the trads together?  A humble, charitable and truly traditional and inspiring pope?)
My vote is for Bishop Pivarunas, CMRI.


Re: Imaginations on how the Crisis could come to an end
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2024, 05:17:39 PM »
My father becomes Pope, abolishes Vatican II & "bod"

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Imaginations on how the Crisis could come to an end
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2024, 09:27:25 PM »
My vote is for Bishop Pivarunas, CMRI.

Would have to disagree mightily there.  He's a good man, but lots of issues with his theology and, frankly, not exactly an intellectual ... which is what we need here to probably set the Church's doctrinal course on target.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Imaginations on how the Crisis could come to an end
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2024, 10:00:38 PM »
What We Need from a Pope --

1) Condemnation of Vatican II and the NOM (declaring everything after Pius XII null and void)

2) Declaration that Roncall - Bergoglio (or if there's another) were never popes.

3) Correction of the errors of R&R and perhaps the dogmatic sedevacantism (this would be to get some of the R&R's heads screwed back on right and restore their sensus Catholicus.  We need to get Trads righted first, since they would have to then take the lead in spreading Traditional Catholicism back out the the rest of the world.

4) Immediately declare deposed every single Roman Rite Conciliar Bishop ... keeping a small handful that might be able to be rehabilitated and keep the Eastern Rite bishops in place for the time being.

5) Elevate every single Traditional priest to fill the vacated Episcopal Sees.  Many are not qualified, but you need someone with the faith and who will follow the directives of the Holy Father for restoring the Church.  Conditionally consecrate all the existing Trad bishops (so that no one has any qualms about validity).

6) Perform the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Order each of these new bishops to perform the consecration in his diocese, and declare any bishop who fails to comply ipso facto deposed, making it so that all the bishops of the world performed the consecration.

7) Immediately ban the celebration of all Novus Ordo Masses and have these bishops develop a plan to restore Tridentine Masses to a handful of large churches in different parts of the diocese where most of the faithful could get to with some commute.  Focus on churches that could be restored to Traditional use by simply ripping out the table (there are likely some in each diocese), and have the new bishop quickly re-consecrate each church (perhaps performing a minor exorcism first).  You could find enough priests who are trained in the Tridentine Mass in each diocese, some older / retired, others Motu, others FSSP, etc. ... and conditionally ordain them to provide the Sacraments at these locations, but the priests must be completely submissive to the new Holy Father and the bishops appointed to them (i.e. with no Modernist inclinations and accepting the condemnation of Vatican II and the NOM).

8) Condemn individually the errors of Vatican II and the Modernists while re-affirming Traditional Catholic dogma on those points, some of them solemnly, i.e. with dogmatic force.

9) Deal with the core theological problem behind all the Vatican II errors, EENS.  Reaffirm EENS dogma and define it dogmatically (for the 4th time), this time adding clarity that would prevent the various loopholes that allowed people to interpret it away.  Reaffirm the necessity of the Sacraments and subjection to the Holy Father for salvation.

10) Ban any mention of BoD and order such mentions expunged from all Catechisms and even the works of the Doctors (such as St. Thomas or St. Alphonsus).  Pray and study about whether to entirely condemn BoD.  BoD does absolutely no good whatsoever and should never be mentioned again.

11) Reaffirm Catholic moral theology, condemning in particular Bergoglio's perversions thereof, and also condemn the practice of NFP, laying out the guidelines in terms of abstinence.

12) Create some regional seminaries in each country (repurposing old seminary buildings that are still viable for Tradition) where either Novus Ordo priests (or former bishops) could get re-educated or new priests trained.  Some priests would be ordained sooner than the normal 6 years, but only in a "Simplex" capacity until they complete their training, where their only function would be to offer Mass and the other Sacraments (no preaching yet).  Former Novus Ordo priest would be given an intensive crash course in moral theology, Latin, and receive training in how to offer the Tridentine Mass ... and would be dispatched to care for the faithful, while continuing courses in scholastic Philosophy and Theology.

13) Establish a new Oath required of all priests before entering seminary and again before ordination, an expansion of the Oath Against Modernism to include all the errors condemned by the new Holy Father.

14) Make some Liturgical corrections, rolling back most of the Pius XII 1955 Holy Week changes, but keeping things like restoring the Liturgies to the right time of day.  Re-teach a clear distinction between Liturgical singing and a normal choir, between a Solemn Mass (where the singing is Liturgical) and a Missa Cantata (where it's not), making it clear that the latter is merely a Low Mass with singing to dress it up.  Forbid women / girls from Liturgical singing.  Re-establish permanent Minor Orders and require all those serving within the Sanctuary to have Minor Orders, which could be conferred by the parish priest.

15) Deal with the Eastern Rites, calling all the bishops in and laying out what they need to do.  This would require some additional study.  Of course, they too would be required to take the above-mentioned oaths or otherwise be deposed and replaced.  There are some Trad Eastern Rite bishops out there ... appoint these to various Eparchies and Patriarchates.  Put in a program to restore Greek as the Sacred language of the various Byzantine Rites, Aramaic for the Maronite, etc.  Ban various abuses that have crept in, such as in the Maronite Rite, etc.

These steps would be done in Blitzkrieg fashion through the issuance of Papal Bulls, and then only when the Church's condition has been stabilized and restored, call a new Ecuмenical Council to deal with everything.

This would, IMO, be the right plan.  Of course, the problem with nearly all the currently-leading Trad candidates is that very few understand the problems with EENS / BOD and NFP (most of them have bought into them), but these are some of the most serious errors that need to be addressed, as the entire theological crisis was founded on these ... and I don't see any of the current Trad bishops properly addressing these matters, and they would likely perpetuate these errors, so that the crisis would merely be set back by a few years.  In fact, some of them would probably make a condemnation of "Feeneyism" their first order of business, taking the wrong side on the matter.