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Author Topic: If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?  (Read 12313 times)

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Offline Jehanne

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  • And, why do they expel sede priests?  And, why was there not a single bishop at the Second Vatican Council, none of whom had doubtful Orders, who embraced the sedevacantist position?


    Offline Luker

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #1 on: August 16, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »
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  • I believe Bishop Castro de Meyer held the sedevacanist position starting after the council.  He and Archbishop Lefebvre were of course in disagreement on that point, although as I understand it they were otherwise quite close (friends maybe?).

    As for why exactly the SSPX expel sede priests, I am not really sure.  Perhaps they feel that having open sedevacanists in their ranks compromise their position of 'recognize and resist' with the Vatican ??

    Luke
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 08:54:57 PM »
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  • Name one SSPX priest that has been expelled for holding to sedevacantism.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline poche

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 01:09:39 AM »
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  • Didn't Bishop Castro de Mayer have a reconciliation with the Vatican?

    Offline bowler

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 03:10:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?


    I'm not a sedevacantes, however, I don't argue with them about the subject for it a mystery to me how the Vatican II popes were not struck dead by lightning from God before they did their DEEDS. (I have always been a believer in EENS  as it is written, even before I ever heard of Fr. Feeneyl)

    I believe that the Abp. Lefebvre did not totally embrace the sedevacantes position for the same reason that he did not embrace the strict interpretation of EENS, because it would make him too many enemies.

    Look what happened to Fr. Feeney's groups, they became insignificant. Now, imagine if they were all sedevacantes too?

    I have an article about Abp. Lefebvre in the 1960's, it says he was doing rally's all over Europe and the world and his following was growing by leaps, that he was becoming a serious challenge to Paul VI. It says that had it continued, he would have changed everything. Then he was called in by Paul VI, and thereafter the Abp. stopped everything he was doing, and the uprising died.

    I think therein is your answer why the SSPX does not embrace sedevacantes thesis.


    Offline TKGS

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 07:44:51 AM »
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  • I don't believe the sedevacantist thesis is "obvious".  After all, there is a man in Rome who wears a white cassock (well, actually two men, but that's another issue altogether), calls himself pope, has a small army at his command, and a whole lot of people jumping at his every whim.  He certainly does look like he's the pope!

    Just as it is not immediately obvious that raising the price of product does not always increase profits or that a company can often increase its profits by lowering the price of a product and increasing sales, the sedevacantist thesis can seem counterintuitive.

    The sedevacantist thesis requires one to consider the nature of the Church and it has always been and think through the implication of a pope who publicly rejects that nature.  The SSPX, like all non-sedevacantists, do not look at the very nature of the Church but, instead, focus on and expand the meaning of individual dogmatic declarations and canons which, to them, indicate that they must accept the claims to the papacy of any man that has widespread and near universal acceptance without competition.  They necessarily ignore the undisputed fact that anti-popes in history have had wide-spread acceptance and have even ruled from Rome itself.  But it is uncomfortable to believe that these historical anomalies could apply in our own present day.

    I was at a conference at which Bishop Fellay spoke and he likened the Church to a plane in which the pope is the pilot.  He condemned the sedevacantists of being on a plane in which they had ejected the pilot and the plane would soon crash.  Now I would say that this is a very good analogy for the Protestants who are spiraling toward the ground closer every day.  But I would say that the present situation is more like the pilot has died and an enemy has taken his uniform and convinced the flight crew he can pilot the plane but has actually hijacked the plane and is taking it into enemy territory.  The sedevacantists, at first, accepted this new pilot but after realizing he was an enemy took him out of the pilot's seat and is allowing the navigator to fly.  He may not be able to fly with great confidence, but he is, at least, flying in the right direction until a new pilot is actually found.

    Why can't the SSPX see this?  Why can't all non-sedevacantists see this?  One possible reason is that the sedevacantist thesis is extremely distasteful.  Unlike the stereotypical view of the sedevacantist, we don't relish in the papal vacancy.  We are not gleeful at the missteps and the misdirection of the Church.  We don't rub our hands when the Vatican announces a new departure from the Faith.  We don't snicker at Bergoglio's appeasement of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.  We are saddened.  While it does look like Bergoglio will not be ordaining women anytime soon, an official blessing of sodomite couples does appear to be on the horizon.  Only time will tell.  Everything that happens in the Vatican today seems to confirm the sedevacantist thesis while the anti-sedevacantists simply declare that all these actions are simply not the actions of the Church.  While we agree on that fine point, we simply cannot understand how these non-Church actions can keep coming (over and over and over again) from the Vicar of Christ on earth.


    Offline Stella

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #6 on: August 17, 2013, 05:21:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    TKGS said:
    The sedevacantists, at first, accepted this new pilot but after realizing he was an enemy took him out of the pilot's seat and is allowing the navigator to fly.  He may not be able to fly with great confidence, but he is, at least, flying in the right direction until a new pilot is actually found.


    Can you explain what you mean by the navigator? Thanks.
    Mother of God, pray for us sinners.

    Offline songbird

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 06:28:33 PM »
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  • I see it like this:  The Jєωs, scribes and those who read the prophesies and etc, could not see Christ in front of them.  Pride was one reason.  Others before Christ, paid more attention to the laws and not the scriptures and did not recognize Christ.

    What I see and confront in PIUS X is their reasoning is that they can not judge the pope.  I say, "Christ said that we would know them by their fruits."  I say read Vatican I how infalibility was defined.  The clergy had to define "pope", validity and election.  Some people don't take time to read or to search and just stay where they are.

    Pius X wanted jurisdiction to hold up, but it means that they must come under the pope, but yet they say they are separated as traditional at the same time.  If they don't hold up jurisdiction, then are they or are they not valid. If they come under the pope, are they NO?  How is their ordinations?  Are they approved by pope?
    How can they be both, tradtional and come under a pope that says that they are schismatic.  Pius the X was founded on what they called jurisdiction from the pope.  If they do not take on the pope, then all their validity as they see it, would not be there.  Then where would they be.

    That is why epikea was taken on by Carmona, for that is the logical way and the only way to keep the lineage going.


    Offline TKGS

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #8 on: August 17, 2013, 07:11:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stella
    Quote
    TKGS said:
    The sedevacantists, at first, accepted this new pilot but after realizing he was an enemy took him out of the pilot's seat and is allowing the navigator to fly.  He may not be able to fly with great confidence, but he is, at least, flying in the right direction until a new pilot is actually found.


    Can you explain what you mean by the navigator? Thanks.


    The navigator is the person who determines the position of the aircraft and what direction it must go to get to the proper destination.  He assists the pilot by providing directional information so that the pilot can fly the plane safely, avoiding the storms, wind currents, birds, etc., that can be dangerous for the plane.  (At least this is my understanding.  If I'm technically wrong on the matter, you should still use this understanding in my analogy.)

    Sedevacantists can't truly fly the plane (i.e., the Church) completely safely because many of them have differing ideas as to precisely which button to push and when, etc., because they lack a unity that the pilot would provide.  (I.e., the shepherd is struck and the flock scatters.)  They may run into turbulence that a pilot could fly through using his skills that make the ride very rough.  However, as rough and tumble the flight is, they are still headed in the right direction--in the direction of heaven through the True Faith and True Sacraments.

    The New Religion, on the other hand, is headed away from heaven and more and more of the passengers are imbibing on the Modernism being served by the stewards and stewardesses at the direction of the Pilot.  Since the end of Vatican 2, most of the passengers simply jumped out without parachutes (which is why almost every Jehovah Witness I meet is a "former Catholic") and others have jumped with the parachute of Faith and fortunate to land in a plane flown by the navigator.

    That was what I meant.  An imperfect analogy, I know.  

    Offline Cathedra

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 04:19:26 AM »
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  • If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?

    This is a question coming from someone who admits that he would kiss the Koran (!); someone who thinks that the Saint Benedict Center getting their theological position "approved" by the Vatican (which approves of a Mass without any words of consecration to be "valid"; which sends yearly greetings and congratulations to Jєωs, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims etc. for their special feasts and "holidays"; etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam) actually means something.

    Maybe you yourself should answer that question.

    Maybe you should explain to us how is it that you were a sedevacantist sometime before, and explain how you went back to being a novus ordo.

    Perhaps you should explain to us how is it that you can assert something false, get refuted and exposed, then act like nothing happened, and then assert the same thing all over again.

    Perhaps you can explain to us how is it that you can ignore all the facts and all the evidence.

    You should explain how and why do you do all these things.

    Offline Stella

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 05:24:05 AM »
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  • Thank you, TKGS. Initially it sounded as though the navigator was an alternate pope who sedevacantists are following.
    Mother of God, pray for us sinners.


    Offline TKGS

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 06:00:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Maybe you should explain to us how is it that you were a sedevacantist sometime before, and explain how you went back to being a novus ordo.


    This is very interesting.  I was unaware that the individual who opened the topic was a sedevacantist at one time and returned to the Novus Ordo.  I truly would like to know what brings someone to the realization that the Conciliar church really is the true Church in spite of all the evidence (e.g., the changing of doctrines, the transformation of the sacraments, etc.) against it.

    What is it that takes one to the Novus Ordo?  What is it that takes one from thinking that the leader of the Church can be a notorious and pertinacious heretic?  I'd like to know.  Every traditional Catholic I personally know who has told me why they are not sedevacantist has told me that they agree that the pope says heretical things but they "just can't accept that he's not the pope" and they give me legal arguments to demonstrate some technicality that indicates that he can be the pope.  I really don't understand.

    Offline eddiearent

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 06:03:35 AM »
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  • Bishop Castro Mayer was mentioned and obviously there was Archbishop Thuc. The SSPX did expel many sedevacantists in the 80s and sedevacantism was one of many issues being discussed at the time. The Society now a days doesn't allow the views, but many priests hold on to it privately. What matters for the SSPX is adherence to it's thought of the day --- a point made by a conference I watched of Bishop Daniel Dolan. They require the faithful who assist at the Mass to have 100% loyalty to whatever the SSPX's positions may be no matter how contradictory since they see the SSPX as a sort of divinely founded institution to save the Church. Hence, you have the Fellayites of today and many who don't and won't consider attending Mass of a non-SSPX priest (outside the SSPX there is no salvation). Many faithful though they don't call themselves sedevacantist within the SSPX --- however practically are if they deny the new sacraments and other issues.

    Offline TCat

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 06:14:45 AM »
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  • Is the SSPX in denial?
    Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux! Ne Draco Sit Mihi Dux!

    Offline Jehanne

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    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?
    « Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 08:03:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    If the sede position is so obvious, why does the SSPX reject it?

    This is a question coming from someone who admits that he would kiss the Koran (!); someone who thinks that the Saint Benedict Center getting their theological position "approved" by the Vatican (which approves of a Mass without any words of consecration to be "valid"; which sends yearly greetings and congratulations to Jєωs, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims etc. for their special feasts and "holidays"; etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam) actually means something.

    Maybe you yourself should answer that question.

    Maybe you should explain to us how is it that you were a sedevacantist sometime before, and explain how you went back to being a novus ordo.

    Perhaps you should explain to us how is it that you can assert something false, get refuted and exposed, then act like nothing happened, and then assert the same thing all over again.

    Perhaps you can explain to us how is it that you can ignore all the facts and all the evidence.

    You should explain how and why do you do all these things.


    You diatribe is ad hominem and has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the question.  This is the problem which I have with the sedes:

    Quote
    Sedes do not believe in the forgiveness of sins.


    You don't think that it is possible for someone to sin, to be in error, or even heresy and apostasy, and then to experience contrition for their sins, confess them, and receive forgiveness and absolution.  For starters, I have never kissed the Koran, nor would I, ever, and I "recant, renounce, and abjure" my former "hypothetical" errors on that question.  As for the Saint Benedict Centers, two out of the three are in full communion with their local Ordinary and with Rome, so says their Ordinary and Rome.  The third center has a listed diocesan Mass; these are facts which anyone can reference.

    So, please, stop attacking me and answer the question, if you can.  The Bishops, priests, and theologians of the Society of Saint Pius X are intelligent men well-versed in Catholic theology; why, then, do they not agree with you?  Stop "pointing fingers at me," and point yours at them!

    P.S.  I was never a full-blown sede, in that I have never attended a sede Mass.  I have considered the idea from "time to time" but have never fully embraced it, in the sense I have associated myself with it formally.