Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY  (Read 831 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31181
  • Reputation: +27095/-494
  • Gender: Male
If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
« on: September 30, 2019, 11:49:37 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • (This is not the ONLY item like this I could post -- I could probably write a book full of them!)

    If the Novus Ordo is the same religion that we Traditional Catholics practice, then WHY...


    ...do Novus Ordo no longer believe it's necessary to baptize children as early as possible?

    Is it perhaps because of some heresy, that all babies go to heaven when they die? That ANY unbaptized babies go to heaven when they die?
    There seems to be a bit of an old heresy in there (Pelagianism?)

    I don't think this particular heresy is spoken about very often, but it should be remembered, when listing all the errors, dangers, and heresies of the Conciliar Church.

    I just saw a post from a Novus Ordo CONSERVATIVE Catholic that had his "healthy" baby baptized over 2 months after the birth. Actually, that's pretty quick for some Novus Ordos.

    I knew a young man who spent several years at the SSPX Seminary in Winona, who married a Novus Ordo woman and his baby was baptized SIX MONTHS after the birth. Later on he got divorced and annulled, but I digress. 

    Logged
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #1 on: September 30, 2019, 12:03:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Yes, it's absolutely due to a neo-Pelagianism.  People have this concept that unless someone commits actual sin, and a heinous one at that (but that's off topic), the default is for them to be saved.  They basically don't believe in Original Sin, viewing it simply as a metaphor for having certain bad tendencies or "brokenness".

    Well, that's for some of them.

    90% of them probably don't even think very hard about it.  For them, it's all about the "event" and the subsequent gathering (or party) with extended family.  I've known people who put it off for no other reason than various travel inconveniences for a few of their extended family:  "Uncle Bob can't make it until 6 months from now, so we'll schedule it for then."
    Logged

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31181
    • Reputation: +27095/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 12:18:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 30, 2019, 12:03:22 PM
    90% of them probably don't even think very hard about it.  For them, it's all about the "event" and the subsequent gathering (or party) with extended family.  I've known people who put it off for no other reason than various travel inconveniences for a few of their extended family:  "Uncle Bob can't make it until 6 months from now, so we'll schedule it for then."

    Oh, I know this is exactly it with MOST of them.

    However, how could parents put off their child's Baptism for 6 months for the sake of "Uncle Bob", if they truly believed they were jeopardizing their child's ETERNITY with God?

    For TRADITIONAL (i.e., real) Catholics, the calculus just doesn't work out. Too bad for Uncle Bob, we all say.

    But not so with Novus Ordo Catholics. That's why I suspect it's a de-facto new religion.
    It's not just about style, or the language used at Mass. Not at all!
    Logged
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #3 on: September 30, 2019, 01:42:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Matthew on September 30, 2019, 12:18:46 PM
    Oh, I know this is exactly it with MOST of them.

    However, how could parents put off their child's Baptism for 6 months for the sake of "Uncle Bob", if they truly believed they were jeopardizing their child's ETERNITY with God?

    For TRADITIONAL (i.e., real) Catholics, the calculus just doesn't work out. Too bad for Uncle Bob, we all say.

    But not so with Novus Ordo Catholics. That's why I suspect it's a de-facto new religion.
    It's not just about style, or the language used at Mass. Not at all!
    Because their teachers never hammered home that if you die without baptism, you are lost. So they just don't think about the issue at all, and if someone asked them, they'd say "God would never damn an innocent baby." Well, partially true, they'd go to Limbo rather than Hell - but that's still a lot worse than Heaven, and NOers don't even know what Limbo is. 
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #4 on: September 30, 2019, 03:10:40 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Matthew on September 30, 2019, 12:18:46 PM
    Oh, I know this is exactly it with MOST of them.

    However, how could parents put off their child's Baptism for 6 months for the sake of "Uncle Bob", if they truly believed they were jeopardizing their child's ETERNITY with God?

    For TRADITIONAL (i.e., real) Catholics, the calculus just doesn't work out. Too bad for Uncle Bob, we all say.

    But not so with Novus Ordo Catholics. That's why I suspect it's a de-facto new religion.
    It's not just about style, or the language used at Mass. Not at all!

    I suspect that with most of these, they don't really believe it one way or another.  They just don't think about it.  Having a Pelagian belief implies that they believe in SOMEthing.  These are the cultural Catholic pew-sitters, 80% of whom are probably just agnostics, and 10% atheists.  It's just a cultural thing for them.  I don't really think that most of them believe that Baptism does anything at all ... it's just some cultural initiation ceremony in which the person is welcomed into the community and society comes together to acknowledge this ... analogous to a bar mitzvah type of thing.  If you told them that Baptism confers sanctifying grace upon the infant, they'd probably look at you like you had three heads and were speaking Martian.  They don't know what "sanctifying grace" even MEANS.  That's how deplorable is the Novus Ordo catechesis.
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #5 on: September 30, 2019, 04:34:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I think it’s hard to categorize “the novus ordo” as one THING.  A layman holding a material error(and oh yes do I agree it’s error, it’s basicslly pelagian) doesn’t make them a different religion.  But it’s true that the novus ordo is ambiguous enough that you can get heresy out of it.  I guess where I disagree with sedes and maybe some sspx resistance people is I don’t think ALL of them are heretics.
    Logged

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6215/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #6 on: September 30, 2019, 09:06:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    But it’s true that the novus ordo is ambiguous enough that you can get heresy out of it.  I guess where I disagree with sedes and maybe some sspx resistance people is I don’t think ALL of them are heretics.
    Do you have specific people in mind?  Or are you just playing the statistics game?  What evidence do you have to say that they aren't all heretics?  Sure, it sounds extreme to say they all are, but maybe they truly all are?  None of us can really know.  And really, no sede or resistance person believes it with any certainty; they are speaking in general terms.  The Church often speaks in general terms as well.  Generalities are not the same as absolutes.
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #7 on: September 30, 2019, 09:11:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 30, 2019, 09:06:42 PM
    Do you have specific people in mind?  Or are you just playing the statistics game?  What evidence do you have to say that they aren't all heretics?  Sure, it sounds extreme to say they all are, but maybe they truly all are?  None of us can really know.  And really, no sede or resistance person believes it with any certainty; they are speaking in general terms.  The Church often speaks in general terms as well.  Generalities are not the same as absolutes.
    I know plenty of people who seem by all accounts to me to hold to every single dogma of the Catholic Church, while being in the Novus Ordo.  No, you're right, I don't *technically* know, but by that same logic, I can't *really* know where anyone stands except myself (and even then not completely.)

    If someone truly professes all dogmas of the faith, I give the benefit of the doubt.  If they don't, I don't.
    Logged

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6215/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #8 on: September 30, 2019, 09:20:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • -  V2, by definition, does not express some doctrines of the Church.  
    -  Novus Ordo Catholics accept V2.
    -  So, novus ordo-ites do not believe all doctrines of the Church.
    .
    It’s a generality but it’s logical.  Sure there are exceptions (we hope...maybe not...only God knows) and no reasonable sede or resistance person says such logic is foolproof.  Your criticism is a straw man.  
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #9 on: October 01, 2019, 05:58:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 30, 2019, 04:34:36 PM
    I think it’s hard to categorize “the novus ordo” as one THING.  A layman holding a material error(and oh yes do I agree it’s error, it’s basicslly pelagian) doesn’t make them a different religion.  But it’s true that the novus ordo is ambiguous enough that you can get heresy out of it.  I guess where I disagree with sedes and maybe some sspx resistance people is I don’t think ALL of them are heretics.

    Well, it obviously depends on the individual.  I know some Catholics in the Novus Ordo who clearly still hold the faith, even if they are materially confused about some matters.  Others, on the other hand, clearly have no faith.  So we have to consider the Novus Ordo from its material aspect as well as from the fruits.  You see, the fact that 90% of these "Catholics" by their own polls are heretical on one issue or another, including in formal error due to not accepting the authority of the Magisterium ... that all "says something" about the Novus Ordo.  It's not that the Novus Ordo in itself is just great and all this error and confusion happened merely per accidens.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #10 on: October 01, 2019, 06:02:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I don't think they're all heretics either (even materially speaking), but very few do not hold at least some "errors".  I distinguish between heresy proper and theological error ... something that sedevacantists routinely conflate.

    Now, the major actual HERESY in Vatican II is the ecclesiology.  But there are a significant number of "Feeneyites" in the Novus Ordo who do not accept the ecclesiological heresies of Vatican II.  Sure, many of these try to apply a hermeneutic of continuity to Vatican II, where they try to impose Traditional ecclesiology on it.  Even though their attempts fail, they clearly do not adhere to the ecclesiological and soteriological heresies of Vatican II.  So there's a case where some in the Novus Ordo are not heretics.  They also tend to "explain" Religious Liberty in such as way as to "MAKE" it conform to Traditional doctrine.
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #11 on: October 01, 2019, 07:20:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 01, 2019, 05:58:01 AM
    Well, it obviously depends on the individual.  I know some Catholics in the Novus Ordo who clearly still hold the faith, even if they are materially confused about some matters.  Others, on the other hand, clearly have no faith.  So we have to consider the Novus Ordo from its material aspect as well as from the fruits.  You see, the fact that 90% of these "Catholics" by their own polls are heretical on one issue or another, including in formal error due to not accepting the authority of the Magisterium ... that all "says something" about the Novus Ordo.  It's not that the Novus Ordo in itself is just great and all this error and confusion happened merely per accidens.
    I agree with all of this 
    Logged

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If the Novus Ordo is the same religion, then WHY
    « Reply #12 on: October 01, 2019, 07:21:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    But not so with Novus Ordo Catholics. That's why I suspect it's a de-facto new religion.
    It's not just about style, or the language used at Mass. Not at all!


    "It is our purpose here to show that the Conciliar Religion is not the Catholic Faith. This task could be approached in two ways. We could examine the sixteen Conciliar decrees in which, amid interminable paragraphs of doctrinal expression and pietistic persiflage, are to be found those ambivalent sentences of Liberal and Modernist mischief, which have provided the open sesame for the reformers to bleach the Church of Catholicity, and erect the grotesquerie of a neo-Protestant/Humanist monolith. Or, we could examine this Thing which has evolved and continues to permute before our eyes.

    In this latter case, we would not be omitting the former approach, for those who have carried through, and are carrying through, their Revolution have never ceased to invoke the verbiage of the Council as their inspiration and charter. Moreover, both Pope Paul VI described it, and Pope John Paul II continues to describe the Post-Conciliar Church as the expected and desired product of the Council. Paul VI several times spoke as if he were a little dismayed, one may even say, affrighted, at the direction of things in the Church; but we cannot imagine that such expressions were sincere, for, concurrently, he used
    the full weight of his office toward the dismantling and deformation process, and appointed, as destructors, bishops who he was assured would hold to the task. As those who have read his encyclicals know, the present Pope [JP2] is not only not disturbed by the condition of the Church presently, but is excitedly pleased about it...." - From Who Shall Ascend?
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
    Pages: [1]
    « previous next »