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Author Topic: If Fr. Hesse were alive today  (Read 1269 times)

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Offline Hank Igitur

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If Fr. Hesse were alive today
« on: December 22, 2023, 12:10:25 PM »
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    • Does anyone think that if Fr. Gregory Hesse (1953-2006) were alive today in 2023 that he would be a die-hard Sedevacanist? I definitely think so. I believe the same can be said also for Abp. Lefebvre. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #1 on: December 22, 2023, 12:48:06 PM »
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    • It's funny how this situation works. I mean the revolution in the Church in the 60s and 70s and the worldwide utter chaos it brought with it was many times worse than whatever the current pope dreams up. 

    +ABL dealt with the popes face to face on numerous occasions in those days, if any trad on earth would have gone sede, +ABL would have done so right then and there - if he was ever going to.

    Fr. Hesse I don't believe he would have gone sede either based on his sound Catholic principles, but between the two my guess is that if one of them was going to go sede, it would be Fr. Hesse because he was NO and NO educated before he converted. Many of those who were NO, especially the educated ones, all seem to have the same idea as regards false obedience to the pope as Fr. Fenton taught, so if that idea resurfaced within him, then imo would be his best chance for him to go sede. Otherwise, no.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #2 on: December 23, 2023, 04:15:49 AM »
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    • Yes. I have been saying this also.

    Fr. Hesse is a big reason why I believe the seat of Peter is vacant. I watched many Fr. Hesse videos at the advice of the SSPX. I have tried to find the video where he says it but cannot find it.

    Fr. Hesse said very clearly that if the pope were to become a formal heretic that he would then become a sedevacantist because the pope could not be a formal heretic. He was referring to JP2, who was accused of having a bad formation and not knowing he was heretical. I do not believe that the same would have been said of Bergoglio. Fr. Hesse did indeed say under the issue of a formal heretic he would adopt the sede vacante position. Notice that many years later, the SSPX, which held this same position, decided to promote a book which pushed the novel notion of a heretic pope. The same was done vigorously in Brazil by the resistance written by a Carlos Nougue. So if you basically understood and maintained the SSPX position held by some of its professors and others and also Fr. Hesse (in the 90s), you would have arrived at a sede vacante position with Francis. This also leads me to believe that Archbishop Lefebvre would have adopted the sede vacante position.
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #3 on: December 23, 2023, 04:45:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on December 23, 2023, 04:15:49 AM
    Fr. Hesse said very clearly that if the pope were to become a formal heretic that he would then become a sedevacantist because the pope could not be a formal heretic. He was referring to JP2, who was accused of having a bad formation and not knowing he was heretical. I do not believe that the same would have been said of Bergoglio. Fr. Hesse did indeed say under the issue of a formal heretic he would adopt the sede vacante position.
    I've listened to many of his talks and do not recall him ever saying that. If you come across it please post it and I will do the same.

    I really like Fr. Hesse and understand his explanation as regards formal/material etc., but I think it's possible that there's something lacking  there.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #4 on: December 23, 2023, 04:58:56 AM »
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    • Ah, found it. Starts at about 29:44

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #5 on: December 23, 2023, 05:31:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 23, 2023, 04:58:56 AM
    Ah, found it. Starts at about 29:44

    I’m not in a position right now to listen to audio, but I have searched and scoured for that. If you found what I was looking for that is awesome. 
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #6 on: December 23, 2023, 06:35:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on December 23, 2023, 04:15:49 AM
    Yes. I have been saying this also.

    Fr. Hesse is a big reason why I believe the seat of Peter is vacant. I watched many Fr. Hesse videos at the advice of the SSPX. I have tried to find the video where he says it but cannot find it.

    Fr. Hesse said very clearly that if the pope were to become a formal heretic that he would then become a sedevacantist because the pope could not be a formal heretic. He was referring to JP2, who was accused of having a bad formation and not knowing he was heretical. I do not believe that the same would have been said of Bergoglio. Fr. Hesse did indeed say under the issue of a formal heretic he would adopt the sede vacante position. Notice that many years later, the SSPX, which held this same position, decided to promote a book which pushed the novel notion of a heretic pope. The same was done vigorously in Brazil by the resistance written by a Carlos Nougue. So if you basically understood and maintained the SSPX position held by some of its professors and others and also Fr. Hesse (in the 90s), you would have arrived at a sede vacante position with Francis. This also leads me to believe that Archbishop Lefebvre would have adopted the sede vacante position.
    Why wouldn't he just say the same thing for Bergoglio?  Couldn't he say that formation was lacking for decades, and this is the result of that?  Maybe he (the supposed Catholic pope) is just ignorant of the True Faith?  I suspect that he too would just dig in his heels.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #7 on: December 23, 2023, 06:52:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 23, 2023, 06:35:48 AM
    Why wouldn't he just say the same thing for Bergoglio?  Couldn't he say that formation was lacking for decades, and this is the result of that?  Maybe he (the supposed Catholic pope) is just ignorant of the True Faith?  I suspect that he too would just dig in his heels.

    You are right, it’s just speculation. It seems he would give the same pass to Bergoglio. Remember, Bergoglio isn’t even in the same league as the heretic Wojtyla when it comes to intelligence.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #8 on: December 23, 2023, 08:39:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on December 23, 2023, 04:15:49 AM
    Yes. I have been saying this also.

    Fr. Hesse is a big reason why I believe the seat of Peter is vacant. I watched many Fr. Hesse videos at the advice of the SSPX. I have tried to find the video where he says it but cannot find it.

    Fr. Hesse said very clearly that if the pope were to become a formal heretic that he would then become a sedevacantist because the pope could not be a formal heretic. He was referring to JP2, who was accused of having a bad formation and not knowing he was heretical. I do not believe that the same would have been said of Bergoglio. Fr. Hesse did indeed say under the issue of a formal heretic he would adopt the sede vacante position. Notice that many years later, the SSPX, which held this same position, decided to promote a book which pushed the novel notion of a heretic pope. The same was done vigorously in Brazil by the resistance written by a Carlos Nougue. So if you basically understood and maintained the SSPX position held by some of its professors and others and also Fr. Hesse (in the 90s), you would have arrived at a sede vacante position with Francis. This also leads me to believe that Archbishop Lefebvre would have adopted the sede vacante position.

    Do you hold, then, Opinion No. 1 of the Five Opinions expounded upon by St. Robert Bellarmine?

    That the pope simply cannot become a formal heretic, and therefore cannot be deposed for heresy.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #9 on: December 23, 2023, 11:11:57 AM »
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    • I don’t believe Wojtyla was a legitimate pope. I don’t know, but I don’t believe he was. However, it is very easy to prove formal heresy in the case of Bergoglio. There were no dubias for JP2. JP2 never said “today I am going to say a heresy”. Very different situation. 
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    Online St Giles

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    Re: If Fr. Hesse were alive today
    « Reply #10 on: December 23, 2023, 12:49:25 PM »
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    • As best as I remember from what I've watched recently, Fr. Hesse only said he would probably stop mentioning the pope's name in the Canon if he canonized Luther, when being asked about if the pope can canonize Luther and what would happen.
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