Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: I am considering sedevacantism  (Read 23644 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 13825
  • Reputation: +5568/-865
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #360 on: November 21, 2017, 03:14:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • my turn  :facepalm:
    I tried to explain it to you before, but, well, you have your sededoubtism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #361 on: November 21, 2017, 03:20:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I guess I need to start campaigning for votes.   :soapbox:

    That's OK.  If I feel the need to stay ahead of you in that competition, I can just downvote all your posts.  I have more votes overall, so my downvotes will affect your ratio more than mine.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #362 on: November 21, 2017, 03:21:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I tried to explain it to you before, but, well, you have your sededoubtism.

    Stubborn, you don't really explain or argue ... you mostly just emote.

    Please read the +Lefebvre quotes in the links provide.  He's not as sure as you are about your position.

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #363 on: November 21, 2017, 03:36:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stubborn, you don't really explain or argue ... you mostly just emote.

    Please read the +Lefebvre quotes in the links provide.  He's not as sure as you are about your position.
    Yes, it's emote to you, but I do not need to read about +ABL - above everything else, it was he who was instrumental in the loss of my confusion in the whole sede matter.

    When one comes to the realization that for many decades before V2, certain "well respected" 19th and 20th century theologians taught papal impeccability / blind obedience / and basically, papolatry, and that many of those "liberal ideas have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the church", as +ABL says, it is no wonder so many are confused about the pope - they've been taught wrong.
     
    It was +ABL - who should know, said:


    Because the seminaries of today are not teaching anything about the making of a priest; they teach liberal psychology, sociology, humanism, modernism and many other sciences and semi sciences that are either contrary to Catholic doctrine or have nothing whatever to do with church teachings or with what a priest should know. As for Catholic teachings, they are hardly being taught in today's seminaries.


    These ideas have penetrated into the seminaries and throughout the church.
    And today the church wakes up finding itself in a liberal straitjacket.


    Unfortunately, this is an error. It is a misconception of papal infallibility because since the Council of Vatican I, when the dogma of infallibility was proclaimed, the pope was already infallible. This was not a sudden invention. Infallibility was then far better understood than it is now because it was well known then that the pope was not infallible on everything under the sun.

    He was only infallible in very specific matters of faith and morals. At that time, many enemies of the church did all they could to ridicule this dogma and propagate misconceptions. For example, the enemies of the church often said to the unknowing and naive that if the pope said a dog was a cat, it was the duty of Catholics blindly to accept this position without any question.

    Of course this was an absurd interpretation and the Catholics knew that. This time the same enemies of the church, now that it serves their purpose, are working very hard to have whatever the pope says accepted, without question, as infallible, almost as if his words were uttered by our Lord Jesus Christ himself.

    This impression, although widely promoted, is nevertheless utterly false.

    Infallibility is extremely limited, only bearing on very specific cases which Vatican I has very well defined and detailed.
    It is not possible to say that whenever the pope speaks he is infallible. The fact is that the pope is a liberal, that all this liberal trend has taken place at the Council of Vatican II, and created a direction for the destruction of the church - a destruction which one expects to happen any day.

    After all of these liberal ideas have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the church, I am now being asked to align myself with these liberal ideas. Because I have not aligned myself with these liberal ideas that would destroy the church, there are attempts to suppress my seminaries. And it is for this reason that I am asked to stop ordaining priests.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #364 on: November 21, 2017, 03:37:06 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Archbishop Lefebvre:
    I read Archbishop Lefebvre as a sededoubtist --
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/
    This was interesting.  I liked the opening:
    Quote
    So far as we know, Archbishop Lefebvre never formed a definite judgment that John-Paul II was not a true pope. So if we divide the ecclesiastical spectrum into two categories, those for whom the see is legally vacant and those for whom it is legally occupied, Archbishop Lefebvre will be in the non-sedevacantist camp.
    But such divisions are not always helpful.
    Thinking of it as a continuum rather than a dichotomy seems to be a productive approach.  

    And that quote you cited:
    Quote
    "…a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved? This question must one day be answered…
    really articulates my feelings.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #365 on: November 21, 2017, 03:44:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Yes, it's emote to you, but I do not need to read about +ABL - above everything else, it was he who was instrumental in the loss of my confusion in the whole sede matter.

    When one comes to the realization that for many decades before V2, certain "well respected" 19th and 20th century theologians taught papal impeccability / blind obedience / and basically, papolatry, and that many of those "liberal ideas have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the church", as +ABL says, it is no wonder so many are confused about the pope - they've been taught wrong.

    While indeed many of the dogmatic sedevacantists exaggerate the scope of infallibility, you're minimizing it.  So only a handful of solemn statements are infallible and the overall Magisterium can go so badly off the rails that we must sever communion with and submission to the Pope in order to remain Catholic?  That's no longer even a question of simple infallibility ... but the overall defectibility of the Church.  R&R posits that the Magisterium has defected.  When the Magisterium becomes so corrupted that it's leading people into heresy, it's defected.  At that point the Church has defected in her mission.  So, indeed, many SVs truly hold to a form of papolatry, but R&R would have the Church's Magisterium defect.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #366 on: November 21, 2017, 03:46:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I tried to explain it to you before, but, well, you have your sededoubtism.

    You're starting to sound like the Dimonds.  Once you've presented your "clear argument," only a bad-willed person can reject it.  How about if I find your argument flawed?  Indeed, you've mansplained this to me several times already, and yet I find it almost less convincing with each attempt.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #367 on: November 21, 2017, 03:48:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This was interesting.  I liked the opening:Thinking of it as a continuum rather than a dichotomy seems to be a productive approach.  

    Yes, all to often we create this radical divide ... between one side and then its polar opposite, whereas in point of fact there can be nuanced positions between them.  I find that both sides have valid points and, at the same time, serious failings, so I myself have ended up in between with a nuanced position.


    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #368 on: November 21, 2017, 04:00:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You're starting to sound like the Dimonds.  Once you've presented your "clear argument," only a bad-willed person can reject it.  How about if I find your argument flawed?  Indeed, you've mansplained this to me several times already, and yet I find it almost less convincing with each attempt.
    That's due to your sededoubtism, which itself is because you were among those who were taught wrong. All one really need to do is accept historical and current reality - it's pretty much as simple as that.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #369 on: November 21, 2017, 04:03:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's due to your sededoubtism, which itself is because you were among those who were taught wrong. All one really need to do is accept historical and current reality - it's pretty much as simple as that.

    No, it's NOT that simple.  For you it's just:  Looks like a pope; must be pope.

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #370 on: November 21, 2017, 04:09:05 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • While indeed many of the dogmatic sedevacantists exaggerate the scope of infallibility, you're minimizing it.  So only a handful of solemn statements are infallible and the overall Magisterium can go so badly off the rails that we must sever communion with and submission to the Pope in order to remain Catholic?  That's no longer even a question of simple infallibility ... but the overall defectibility of the Church.  R&R posits that the Magisterium has defected.  When the Magisterium becomes so corrupted that it's leading people into heresy, it's defected.  At that point the Church has defected in her mission.  So, indeed, many SVs truly hold to a form of papolatry, but R&R would have the Church's Magisterium defect.
    I do not minimize anything, I repeat the definition and applications of infallibility from V1. I neither subtract nor add anything to it - for you, that equates to me minimizing infallibility.

    Your whole understanding of what the Magisterium even is, is terribly flawed - but apparently it is what you were wrongly taught, which is why you believe it. Again, the Magisterium can never defect, the pope and hierarchy are not the magisterium, they are the pope and hierarchy.

    Perhaps some day you will come to understand and accept that fact in it's simplicity.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #371 on: November 21, 2017, 04:10:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, it's NOT that simple.  For you it's just:  Looks like a pope; must be pope.
    Nope, it is that simple. Elected as pope, is the pope. Same as always - very, very simple.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10061
    • Reputation: +5256/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #372 on: November 21, 2017, 05:44:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hm, I just popped in here to see what was going on because it looked interesting. WHEW! Looks like I came into the middle of a donnybrook, what?

    "All we need to do is remain the popes' good subject (but God's first)..."

    Interesting play on the words of St. Thomas More but rather unconvincing given your previous statements IMHOP. But then what do I know; I'm just a simple [minded?] Catholic trying to keep THE Faith.

    But this whole business is too deep for me; I'm 'outta 'ere.  👋
    Sure....now look at what you've done!  ;)
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #373 on: November 21, 2017, 05:51:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Nope, it is that simple. Elected as pope, is the pope. Same as always - very, very simple.
    You can't even properly articulate your own position.  Election + universal acceptance.  What if the election were canonically invalid?  Acceptance by whom?  What if the Church, 90% Arian at one point, had elected and accepted an Arian pope?  You psychologically need to make everything simple ... even when it's not.  That is part of the sedevacantist allure as well.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #374 on: November 21, 2017, 06:08:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Your whole understanding of what the Magisterium even is, is terribly flawed - but apparently it is what you were wrongly taught, which is why you believe it. Again, the Magisterium can never defect, the pope and hierarchy are not the magisterium, they are the pope and hierarchy.

    Perhaps some day you will come to understand and accept that fact in it's simplicity.

    Your view of the Magisterium isn't even remotely Catholic.  Maybe someday YOU will come to accept that.  I've splained this to you many times already.  Pope and hiererarchy exercise Magisterium.  Magisterium is not some static body of truth.  Stubborn decides what's in it and what isn't ... so-called Magisterium-sifting where Stubborn's private judgment becomes the ultimate arbiter of truth.  So such-and-such teaching of V2 goes against past teaching.  How do you know the past teaching wasn't flawed and rightly corrected by V2?  In your theological framework, you don't.