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Author Topic: I am considering sedevacantism  (Read 23441 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #345 on: November 21, 2017, 02:39:34 PM »
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  • So you're saying that at some point during there lives they were subject to a pope.  How about a baby who's born, is baptized, then dies ... all within a papal interregnum then?
    C'mon. The baby didn't receive Holy Communion either - will that be your next silly query?

    Being as the the Church is assured via the parents and God Parents' profession of faith at the baptism that the infant wants to be in the Church, as such, being a member includes being subject to the pope before the pope died.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #346 on: November 21, 2017, 02:48:42 PM »
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  • I am intrigued by what you said because I see problems with both too.

    Yes, I've struggled with this for years.  Anyone who's honest in seeking the truth (and not just grinding an ax or going off emotion) has to see the real problems with both.  But I finally came to the conclusion that I did NOT have to solve it.  I do, however, need to come up with a Catholic position on the matter.  I cannot embrace non-Catholic principles to justify being a Traditional Catholic.  I see only two such viable positions:  1) subjecting myself to the Vatican II popes (and not just by way of lip service as Stubborn does, but in reality) or 2) sededoubtism (which I came up with).

    This is similar to the position taken by Resistance Priest Fr. Francois Chazal ... and following the thinking in large part of the theologian John of St. Thomas.

    Maybe I can start a thread about it sometime.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #347 on: November 21, 2017, 02:55:12 PM »
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  • Yes, I've struggled with this for years.  Anyone who's honest in seeking the truth (and not just grinding an ax or going off emotion) has to see the real problems with both.  But I finally came to the conclusion that I did NOT have to solve it.  I do, however, need to come up with a Catholic position on the matter.  I cannot embrace non-Catholic principles to justify being a Traditional Catholic.  I see only two such viable positions:  1) subjecting myself to the Vatican II popes (and not just by way of lip service as Stubborn does, but in reality) or 2) sededoubtism (which I came up with).

    This is similar to the position taken by Resistance Priest Fr. Francois Chazal ... and following the thinking in large part of the theologian John of St. Thomas.

    Maybe I can start a thread about it sometime.
    I hope you do.  I am imagining how it will be - a thoughtful thread in which everyone calmly presents their ideas with no personal animosity whatsoever.

    It could happen.  Really. It could.   :)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #348 on: November 21, 2017, 02:55:51 PM »
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  • I am intrigued by what you said because I see problems with both too.

    And so did Bishop Guerard des Laurier, a theological heavyweight himself, professor at the Pontifical Lateran University in Rome, who helped Pius XII draft the dogma of the Assumption and later co-authored the Ottaviani Intervention; he made some distinctions and came up with what became known as sedeprivationism.  IMO that's not a bad approach, FAR superior straight SVism (resolving the ecclesiavacante problem) but still does formally reduce to SVism and has a few of the same problems I found with SVism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel-Louis_Gu%C3%A9rard_des_Lauriers

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #349 on: November 21, 2017, 02:56:42 PM »
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  • I hope you do.  I am imagining how it will be - a thoughtful thread in which everyone calmly presents their ideas with no personal animosity whatsoever.

    It could happen.  Really. It could.   :)

    With this particular issue?   :laugh1:  

    It invariably gets heated.  Because I'm in between, as on the BoD issue, I usually generate animosity from both sides.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #350 on: November 21, 2017, 02:58:35 PM »
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  • C'mon. The baby didn't receive Holy Communion either - will that be your next silly query?

    Being as the the Church is assured via the parents and God Parents' profession of faith at the baptism that the infant wants to be in the Church, as such, being a member includes being subject to the pope before the pope died.

    So then the intention to be subject to a PAST pope suffices for salvation?  [PS -- I'm not questioning the vicarious intention through the godparents.]

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #351 on: November 21, 2017, 02:59:05 PM »
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  • With this particular issue?   :laugh1:  

    It invariably gets heated.  Because I'm in between, as on the BoD issue, I usually generate animosity from both sides.
    Would it make you feel better if I said it was your personality and not the issue that causes this?   :P

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #352 on: November 21, 2017, 03:00:36 PM »
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  • Would it make you feel better if I said it was your personality and not the issue that causes this?   :P

    Undoubtedly, but in this case, it's actually both.  As you know well, I can rub people the wrong way.  But even when I'm being calm about it, people get really emotional about this issue.

    Of course, I would have you note that my reputation currently stands as +6142/-868 ... a ratio of about 7.07 to 1, whereas yours is only 6.6 to 1  :P   


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #353 on: November 21, 2017, 03:01:19 PM »
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  • I don't want to argue with you, Stubborn, because I am grateful for your past kindness, but I am not satisfied with your position.  You seem to think the answer is simple and obvious and only those who are stupid or bad-willed miss it.  I don't find it simple.  I find it so complicated that I get a headache when I try to think about it.
    The crazy thing is, it is so totally simple that once it hits you, it's almost like that feeling you have after having lost your glasses, you find them sitting right on your nose the whole time - it is really almost that simple.
    Those who are bad willed, are those who constantly take papal teachings (of all things) and try to use them to vindicate their sedevacantism - after having been repeatedly corrected and asked to cease doing that. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #354 on: November 21, 2017, 03:05:13 PM »
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  • So then the intention to be subject to a PAST pope suffices for salvation?  [PS -- I'm not questioning the vicarious intention through the godparents.]
    I would say yes, but only as long as the past pope(s) was never rejected as pope(s).
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #355 on: November 21, 2017, 03:05:39 PM »
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  • Undoubtedly, but in this case, it's actually both.  As you know well, I can rub people the wrong way.  But even when I'm being calm about it, people get really emotional about this issue.

    Of course, I would have you note that my reputation currently stands as +6142/-868 ...  :P
    :laugh1:
    But seriously, it is an issue that people ought to have strong feelings about.  The Pope is the Vicar of Christ.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #356 on: November 21, 2017, 03:08:15 PM »
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  • The crazy thing is, it is so totally simple that once it hits you, it's almost like that feeling you have after having lost your glasses, you find them sitting right on your nose the whole time - it is really almost that simple.
    Those who are bad willed, are those who constantly take papal teachings (of all things) and try to use them to vindicate their sedevacantism - after having been repeatedly corrected and asked to cease doing that.

    my turn  :facepalm:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #357 on: November 21, 2017, 03:09:08 PM »
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  • :laugh1:
    But seriously, it is an issue that people ought to have strong feelings about.  The Pope is the Vicar of Christ.

    LOL, I added that your ratio is only 6.6 to 1 (editing the post after your response).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #358 on: November 21, 2017, 03:13:16 PM »
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  • :laugh1:
    But seriously, it is an issue that people ought to have strong feelings about.  The Pope is the Vicar of Christ.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

     “…a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved? This question must one day be answered…” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

    I read Archbishop Lefebvre as a sededoubtist --
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #359 on: November 21, 2017, 03:13:43 PM »
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  • LOL, I added that your ratio is only 6.6 to 1 (editing the post after you responded).
    I guess I need to start campaigning for votes.   :soapbox: