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Author Topic: I am considering sedevacantism  (Read 23520 times)

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Offline Nooseph Polten

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #300 on: November 10, 2017, 06:10:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freedom on November 08, 2017, 04:44:11 PM
    .
    Stupid, I mean Stubborn, is going to be one of the loudest reprobates screaming and crying; but Lord!, Lord!, I have prophesied in your Name …
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    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
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    Freedom, I have underestimated you. If I had known you possessed the power to not only depose popes, but to condemn people to hell, I would not have spoken against sedevacantism the way I have in this thread. 
    Forgive me and have mercy on my soul.  :pray:
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #301 on: November 11, 2017, 04:23:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nooseph Polten on November 10, 2017, 06:10:44 PM
    Freedom, I have underestimated you. If I had known you possessed the power to not only depose popes, but to condemn people to hell, I would not have spoken against sedevacantism the way I have in this thread.
    Forgive me and have mercy on my soul.  :pray:
    :laugh1:
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #302 on: November 11, 2017, 01:26:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freedom on November 10, 2017, 07:06:25 PM
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    You missed your calling, you should have been a stand up comedian.
    .
    You deny the ability to recognize heresy.  You, like all the others, like you, need help going to the bathroom.
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    Colossians 2:8  [8] Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: …
    .

    You missed your calling, you should have been a stand up comedian.
    You really think so? I always thought there was something funny about my life.
    .
    You deny the ability to recognize heresy.  You, like all the others, like you, need help going to the bathroom.
    So what if I don't always flush? At least I keep all my crap inside the toilet...
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #303 on: November 11, 2017, 04:33:22 PM »
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    • Don't we all?
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #304 on: November 11, 2017, 06:21:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freedom on November 11, 2017, 04:23:27 PM
    .
    You live in a toilet?
    .
    Only in a metaphorical sense. However, it would explain a lot if you literally lived in a toilet. 
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    Offline Gwaredd Thomas

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #305 on: November 20, 2017, 05:12:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 02, 2017, 06:05:06 AM
    It all starts at the dogma. Go from there and your confused conclusion above should clear right up. All we need to do is remain the popes' good subject (but God's first), or no human creature will never make it to heaven.
    Hm, I just popped in here to see what was going on because it looked interesting. WHEW! Looks like I came into the middle of a donnybrook, what?

    "All we need to do is remain the popes' good subject (but God's first)..."

    Interesting play on the words of St. Thomas More but rather unconvincing given your previous statements IMHOP. But then what do I know; I'm just a simple [minded?] Catholic trying to keep THE Faith.

    But this whole business is too deep for me; I'm 'outta 'ere.  👋

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #306 on: November 21, 2017, 03:50:26 AM »
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    • Which previous statements are you referring to?

    You left out a very important part of my quote, namely, the actual teaching of the dogma - - "...or no human creature will ever make it to heaven." It is for this reason we are bound to be subject to the pope. It is Divine Law that whatever else the pope may be, he is the pope.

    One of the many things that the sedevacantists wrongly believe, or more accurately, *say* they believe when they really do not believe at all, is that "being subject to the pope is being subject to God". But as all can plainly see, they have no faith whatsoever in that erroneous belief themselves, for if they did, they would embrace the NO and blindly, immediately submit to the pope. That is what those who have faith in a belief do.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #307 on: November 21, 2017, 04:01:46 AM »
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    • "First and foremost, the Church cannot enjoin us to do evil. Yet for centuries, she has enjoined us in many magisterial teachings to make a blanket prayer for the intentions of the Holy Father in order to obtain a plenary indulgence. It follows that making such a blanket prayer cannot be a material contribution to evil on our part.
    Second, when you pray generically for the intentions of the Holy Father, we know that four specific, objective intentions are prayed for every time. From the Raccolta, a collection of indulgences that used to be published by the Sacred Congregation of Indulgences:
    Quote
    23. The Pope’s intention always includes the following objects:
    i. The progress of the Faith and triumph of the Church.
    ii. Peace and union among Christian Princes and Rulers.
    iii. The conversion of sinners.
    iv. The uprooting of heresy."
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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #308 on: November 21, 2017, 08:27:56 AM »
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    • Poster An Even Seven is a dogmatic sedevacantist, so in this instance and since no one else, certainly no other sede made any attempt to correct him, I use him as a sede authority, from this post: AES: ...Being subject to the Pope IS being subject to God.

    If in fact sedes actually believe this, then they would be subject to the pope, otherwise, not being subject to the pope, they are not being subject to God, which is to say that if the pope is not the pope, then God is not God.





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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #309 on: November 21, 2017, 09:24:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 21, 2017, 09:04:14 AM
    I can't seem to get my head wrapped around this debate your having with AES.

    What does seem clear to me is the fact that though there may be many things that the "interregnist" may have to make an account for on judgment day, it won't be this:

    But he answering them, said: Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.

    I think it is fair to say that the overwhelming majority of those believe that Francis is not a Catholic, a heretic...so he (Francis) hath not been planted and shall be rooted up, so saith the Truth Himself. This is the man reason I cannot reconcile the position your hold. This position brings this warning into play unnecessarily.

    Remember in order to resist, one must be part OF. So to say that your position does not align itself with blind leaders would not make any sense, because who would you be resisting then?
    It does not matter one iota that the overwhelming majority believe that Francis is a heretic and not a Catholic. This opinion that the overwhelming majority hold is worthless and means absolutely nothing. Sedevacantists will never accept this indisputable fact, which helps explain why they feel the need to be sedes at all, to reject the pope as pope, and if being subject to the pope is being subject to God, then rejecting the pope as pope is rejecting God as God. So saith AES, representative of all dogmatic sedevacantists everywhere.


    It is Divine Law that the pope is the pope - whatever else the sedes think he may or may not be, one thing we know by virtue of Divine Law, ("And I say to thee: Thou are Peter.....") is that he is the pope and we must be subject to him or no salvation for us.  Whoever has faith in the dogma understands this plainly, those who have no faith whatsoever in the dogma reject the pope as pope.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #310 on: November 21, 2017, 09:51:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on November 21, 2017, 09:29:40 AM
    Hey man, I'm just paraphrasing the words of Pope Leo XIII, who was quoting St. Jerome, who was speaking to Pope Damasus.
    If being subject to the pope is being subject to God, then rejecting the pope as pope is rejecting God as God. There is no way around this.



    Quote
    This one quote proves my point that to be subject and obedient to the Pope means you are subject to Christ. St. Jerome says that he acknowledges no other leader but Christ and because of this he bound to the Pope and more specifically the Chair of Peter. It is this office which we are bound to, not any old guy falsely claiming he's the Pope. It also proves you wrong because you say that the Church does not have a Unity of Faith. You say that the Pope is the Head of the True faith and a false faith. You also say that where Peter is, there is an anti-Church.
    It only condemns sedevacantism because one thing we are certain of, is that the sedes scattereth because they not only do not  gathereth with the pope, in an effort to circuмvent this duty, they claim he is not the pope at all.

    Pope Leo wrote of St. Jerome: 
    “I, acknowledging no other leader than Christ, am bound in fellowship with Your Holiness; that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that the church was built upon him as its rock, and that whosoever gathereth not with you, scattereth.”

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #311 on: November 21, 2017, 10:01:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 21, 2017, 09:36:54 AM
    Answer the question before accusing people of faithlessness.

    How do you avoid: But he answering them, said: Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.

    ?
    This has nothing to do with sedevacantism because the sedes do not believe the pope is blind, they believe he is purposely assisting souls to hell. And they could be right about that, but he is still the pope and we are still bound to be subject to him or no heaven for us.

    Being the popes' subject is not blindly submitting to his wishes as if he were God, we are all God's subjects first, next we are the popes' subjects and we have to continue to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, unless he should command something which is sinful. Has any of the conciliar pope commanded us to do anything?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #312 on: November 21, 2017, 10:41:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 21, 2017, 10:27:41 AM
    Blind= faithless   "For judgment I am come into this world; that they who see not, may see; and they who see, may become blind.

    Does it matter whether a command is given? You wouldn't obey it anyway, so the question is irrelevant.

    Could you answer the question? How do you avoid the fact that you follow blind leaders? You are resisting because they are blind (faithless) right? Commands have nothing to do with it.
    Of course it matters whether a command is given, as the popes' subject, I would obey if it didn't offend God, so it is relevant.
    Presumably it is irrelevant to all sedevacantists, but that can only be because the irrelevancy is part of sedevacantism.

    I do not follow blind leaders, how do you avoid the fact that you follow blind leaders? Surely you did not invent sedevacantism on your own, you allowed yourself to be lead to believe in it by a blind (faithless) leader(s). Who is this blind (faithless) leader(s) whom you follow anyway?  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #313 on: November 21, 2017, 11:30:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 21, 2017, 10:59:36 AM
    Listen, if you are trying to sell something you are doing a lousy job. I told you my issue with holding the resistance position.

    If you are not following blind/faithless leaders then tell me who, what and why you are resisting?

    I could never support this position until I get clarity, and your certainly not doing a good job explaining what appears to be a contradiction.
    I have explained it, I do not follow any leader - again, who is your blind/faithless leader? Who was it that led you into sedevacantism?

    I am not trying to sell anything, I am repeating the Catholic position which is altogether foreign to sedevacantism which is why sedes cannot understand anything I am saying.

    Our Lord made St. Peter the first pope and those elected as pope after him are St. Peter's successors - period. Because Christ Himself instituted it as such, that is Divine Law, that is Catholic and will remain Catholic without any regard whatsoever to the the sanctity or evilness of the popes.

    That is my position because that is the only Catholic position there is. I do not follow the pope, I am his subject, but God's first. If he ever commands anything binding and not sinful, I will obey him because he is the pope. I do not foresee that ever happening, but I cannot see into the future so it could - but for the last 57 years that I've been alive, it hasn't.

    All we need to do is take care to adhere to this Catholic truth: "It is a defined dogma of the Catholic Church that no one can be saved who is not subject to that flesh and blood Vicar of Jesus, the Roman Pontiff. It is one of the requirements for salvation." - Fr. Feeney

    To attempt to circuмvent this requirement is impossible - and it is impossible no matter what excuse is used, what proviso is added or how positive sedes are that he is not the pope.



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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #314 on: November 21, 2017, 11:40:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on November 21, 2017, 11:11:21 AM
    Rejecting a heretic as Pope is being faithful to God. Accepting a heretic as Pope, as you do, is rejecting God and the Unity of Faith.

    You cannot get around this one. You reject the Unity of Faith because you believe the Pope can have two faiths and be the leader of a true and false Church simultaneously.
    You're the one who said being subject to the pope is being subject to God.

    There is no possible way out of it. If you think the pope is God or a God, then rejecting the pope is rejecting God. Rejecting the pope as a heretic is rejecting God as a heretic.

    I do not reject the unity of faith, I wholly echo St. Jerome's words which YOU POSTED: 
    “I, acknowledging no other leader than Christ, am bound in fellowship with Your Holiness; that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that the church was built upon him as its rock, and that whosoever gathereth not with you, scattereth.”

    You do not echo the words above, you are among the scattered because you reject this teaching, preferring your own wrong and non-Catholic opinion instead.

    See what I mean now?

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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