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Author Topic: I am considering sedevacantism  (Read 56221 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #285 on: November 07, 2017, 02:52:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on November 07, 2017, 02:51:11 PM
    Father Wathen said a lot of good things, and he said a lot of bad things as well.

    So you don't recognize Almighty God as an Authority?

    Of course I accept God as an authority. But then, so do Protestants. What is the main difference between you and them? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #286 on: November 07, 2017, 03:24:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on November 07, 2017, 03:03:10 PM
    In a previous post you said that "sedevacantists" do not believe in having any authority over them...  That's a flat out lie.  

    When you asked me who I am subject to, I explained that I was subject to Almighty God and the teachings of His Church.  

    So where do you get the - "sedevacantists" do not believe in having any authority over them garbage?  

    Starting to get the idea that you don't really know what you're talking about, Meg...

    What I meant (and I think you know this) is that sedevacantists don't believe in having a human authority over them. Duh.

    You can believe that I don't know what I'm talking about if you want. I don't mind that. But I'll keep pestering you about the authority thing. You needn't respond to my questions if you think they're dumb or stupid or irrelevant.

    I'll rephrase my question: Do you have any earthly authority over you, as in, say, a human authority? Priest or bishop? Anyone at all?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #287 on: November 07, 2017, 04:03:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on November 07, 2017, 03:57:38 PM
    I don't think you're stupid, Meg...but I don't think you understand the principles of the sede vacante position.  (Most people don't, and most of the Catholics who hold the sede vacante position on CI don't do a very good job presenting it, with the exception of maybe a handful.)  That being said, I'm sure that it can look like anarchy at times here on the forum, but the principles of the sede vacante position are based on basic Catholic teaching.  

    But I digress...

    I work for a traditional Catholic company and I am fairly high up the food chain, but I answer to the President of the company, so I recognize his authority.

    I recognize the authority of sworn law enforcement personnel and duly elected judges.  

    I served 8 years on active duty in the United States Marine Corps and recognize the authority of military Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers.    

    Priest or bishop?  I recognize the authority of all validly ordained priests and validly consecrated bishops.  

    See, Catholics who hold the sede vacante position recognize all types of earthly authority...
          

    Do you have any religious authority over you at all? I'm not speaking of your Catholic boss at your workplace, or law enforcement. How about a confessor who has authority over you?


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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #288 on: November 07, 2017, 08:28:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 07, 2017, 02:44:17 PM
    Father Walthen (though I don't agree with everything he said) once said that sedevacantism is really a form of anarchism. The root meaning of the term "anarchy" is that a person does not believe in having any authority over them. That pretty sums up sedevacantists.

    I doubt that even a devout traditional Pope, if elected, would be enough to convince them (or you) to subject themselves to the authority of said Pope. Sedevacantists would find some reason not to follow even a good Pope.  
    .
    It seems to me there would be some sedes who would find reasons to reject even a good pope in the future, but there would be some sedes who would accept him.  It's not really fair to presume they'll all react in the same way.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #289 on: November 07, 2017, 08:40:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on November 07, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
    Apparently you haven't been reading this. Stubborn's whole "it's just my opinion" blah, blah, blah is moronic. It is just the opinion of every heretic that leads to their heresy. Stubborn claims that we must be subject to a heretic and by your defense of him, you do too.

    How about you glossing over the fact that you're too stupid to understand that I was having fun with you with that paragraph? Seems like you're much more than dense with NO ability to refute the argument.
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    Anyone looking for what a pretentious snob has to say can look no further. Thank you so much for your demonstration.
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    Your argument refutes itself. You don't need my help. You're doing just fine all by yourself.  Carry on.
    .
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #290 on: November 07, 2017, 10:29:54 PM »
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    • I'm starting to see some basis for Flatarian protests contra Neil, regardless of the Euclidean characteristics of Terrarium Firma.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #291 on: November 08, 2017, 04:07:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lastdays on November 07, 2017, 09:57:50 PM
    Stubborn's Principles:

    The dogmatic sedes make themselves impervious to truth no matter how many times they are taught it. All they have in their head is the following: 1) "the pope is not the pope, 2) the dogma does not apply, 3) it is their opinion that does apply" - not necessarily in that order. They even admit it over and over.

    Simple.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #292 on: November 08, 2017, 04:38:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on November 07, 2017, 08:28:14 PM
    .
    It seems to me there would be some sedes who would find reasons to reject even a good pope in the future, but there would be some sedes who would accept him.  It's not really fair to presume they'll all react in the same way.
    .
    Actually Neil, by definition, the dogmatic sedes of the world can never accept any pope, not even a good pope.

    I can say this because I have questioned them in the past on this very subject -  and the one or two that actually answered (sedes are notorious for ignoring questions) testified that no matter what, the newly elected pope would need to be scrutinized by them before having any chance whatsoever of being accepted as pope by them. As they explained it, there is no other choice, this is the way of all the sedes because it must be the way of all sedes. So based on that, it is safe to presume they'll all react in the same way which means by that very fact, they will never have a pope.

    Consider to begin with, all the cardinals are heretics, therefore they have no cardinals to elect a pope. All the conciliar bishops are heretics so they're out. All the conciliar priests are heretics so they're out. They will spend who knows how long to agree on which trad bishops are worthy of electing a pope so that avenue is out. Who will elect a pope? Who will assign a pope? It won't be God, He already did that during His first coming, the next time He comes will be as Judge, so He's out.

    So how will the sedes get a pope they can all agree is a true pope doggone it? The answer is, it will never happen for the sedes, never - for the reasons stated above. But the matter will keep them wholly occupied and concerned with, that's all that really matters to them anyway.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #293 on: November 08, 2017, 04:40:05 AM »
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    • Right, it's the questions; that must be it.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #294 on: November 08, 2017, 04:00:16 PM »
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    • Yeah, you're still stuck in your sede/prot world - misinterpret Scripture away!

    You should avoid those Dimond Fools pep rallies from now on.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #295 on: November 08, 2017, 04:05:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 08, 2017, 04:00:16 PM
    Yeah, you're still stuck in your sede/prot world - misinterpret Scripture away!

    You should avoid those Dimond Fools pep rallies from now on.
    Look here ass, I'm the only Catholic from a long line of Masons and Protestants, excepting one Native convert, and I take mucho heat for it, I know far better than you what a "Prot world" is, and what it means to NOT fit in is as a SEDE, so why don't you do us all, most of all you, a favor and shut your trash talking mouth before speaking.

    Lying sack of crap heretic.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #296 on: November 08, 2017, 04:15:11 PM »
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    • Now see there, you can be understood when you really, really want to be. And I'm sure no one has any doubt, you certainly  know far better what a prot world is - you're one of the promoters of it, along with Freedom and the other dogmatic sedes. But I think you're a distant second to Freedom in that respect. At least he attempts to post something of substance albeit like a prot, you otoh are as useless as an earlobe in that respect.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #297 on: November 08, 2017, 04:28:50 PM »
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    • Are all your ancestors and relatives, masons and prots too? Sure sounds like it. Sounds like they're all pulling for you too - don't let them pull you down!
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #298 on: November 08, 2017, 05:08:27 PM »
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    • Just because you have the self granted authority to depose popes, do you really think that you, a prot, can condemn Catholics too?

    You haven't called us statue worshipers yet, may as well get that off your chest too.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #299 on: November 08, 2017, 05:22:43 PM »
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    • Seem more the "Mirror, mirror" sorts...

    "How do I love me? Let me count the ways..."
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