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Author Topic: I am considering sedevacantism  (Read 23448 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: I am considering sedevacantism
« Reply #120 on: October 31, 2017, 09:01:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 31, 2017, 08:03:51 AM
    Maybe 3rd times the charm.......Where does the Catholic Church teach this is impossible?

    The Scripture I referenced merely shows that pastors and prophets (the pope and hierarchy) can teach heresies and when they do, we are not to listen to them. It is a very good allegory for today's crisis:  "For the prophet and the priest (pope? and hierarchy) are defiled: and in my house (the Church) I have found their wickedness, saith the Lord.....Hearken not (don't listen to him)  to the words of the prophets that prophesy to you, and deceive you".


    He maintains his position as "The Rock" because that position was assigned specifically to him by Christ, which means no matter what he does in any respect or disrespect to that assignment, he is "The Rock" via the command of God the Son.

    Christ did not give him that position conditionally or on any type of temporary basis - such a thing is not even implied anywhere in Scripture.

    He's "The Rock" because God made *him* "The Rock", from that moment on, outside of his death or abdication, there is nothing on earth that can ever change that by virtue of the command of God - so when the pope decides he wants to head two churches, though he sins terribly, he still remains the pope, head of Christ's Church on earth, by virtue of the directive from God, meanwhile, he starts and heads up his own church at the same time - woe unto him is what we all say: "Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord."
    The Old Testament scripture you referenced still does not reference the pope and neither does the Catholic commentary that goes along with it.

    Christ gave Peter the title of Rock because of Peter's profession of faith, the true faith. If he had not made that profession of faith, Christ would not have given Him that title.  Haydock commentary also makes it clear that this title (Rock, foundation) refers to Peter and his successors.  In order to be like Peter, all successors need to profess the same faith.  If they do not (by professing a different faith in a false church as its head), then it is impossible for them to be part of the same foundation and the gates of Hell would prevail.

    And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (John i. 42.) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #121 on: October 31, 2017, 09:02:07 AM »
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    • Consider also when Peter suggested Jesus change His plan, after being called the Rock, Jesus heard Peter's suggestion and said, "Get Behind Me Satan."  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #122 on: October 31, 2017, 09:03:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lastdays on October 31, 2017, 08:30:08 AM
    Resistance is not appropriate in the current situation. A true Pope can never bind the whole Church to error. This goes against the promises of Christ.
    A false pope can't bind the whole Church to error - that much is for sure.
    Which error(s) did the pope bind the whole Church to?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #123 on: October 31, 2017, 09:03:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on October 31, 2017, 09:02:07 AM
    Consider also when Peter suggested Jesus change His plan, after being called the Rock, Jesus heard Peter's suggestion and said, "Get Behind Me Satan."  
    Yes, and even then St. Peter was still "The Rock".
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #124 on: October 31, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 31, 2017, 09:03:44 AM
    Yes, and even then St. Peter was still "The Rock".
    I agree.  But that is true because although he tempted Christ, Peter didn't profess a different faith.  
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #125 on: October 31, 2017, 09:10:07 AM »
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    • cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio

    http://www.sedevacantist.com/encyclicals/Paul04/cuмex.html
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #126 on: October 31, 2017, 09:10:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 31, 2017, 09:03:44 AM
    Yes, and even then St. Peter was still "The Rock".
    Yes, and Peter today would never recognize Francis as his successor. 
     
    Peter when He heard Jesus reply to him, did Peter still go on with his suggestion that Jesus change?

    Answer that! 
     
    No, he submitted to the Will of God. 
     
    Is your current Francis, do you suppose even considering the Will of God?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #127 on: October 31, 2017, 09:14:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 31, 2017, 09:01:33 AM
    The Old Testament scripture you referenced still does not reference the pope and neither does the Catholic commentary that goes along with it.

    Christ gave Peter the title of Rock because of Peter's profession of faith, the true faith. If he had not made that profession of faith, Christ would not have given Him that title.  Haydock commentary also makes it clear that this title (Rock, foundation) refers to Peter and his successors.  In order to be like Peter, all successors need to profess the same faith.  If they do not (by professing a different faith in a false church as its head), then it is impossible for them to be part of the same foundation and the gates of Hell would prevail.

    And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (John i. 42.) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it.
    Pre-V2, all the popes - cardinals, bishops and priests for that matter - made the profession of faith, yet during or after V2, they all professed the conciliar faith - that doesn't mean they all lost their offices, it does mean "woe unto them..."

    I would agree that in order to be like St. Peter, all the successors need to profess the same true faith, but there is nothing to stop them from not doing so, hence not being like him spiritually, yet remain St. Peter's successors by virtue of the command of God bestowing that office on St. Peter and his successors. Again, there is nothing and no power on earth that can ever countermand Christ's directive, not even the popes' own abandonment and infidelity to the faith. Rather, woe unto him when he faces God if he doesn't correct himself before then.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #128 on: October 31, 2017, 09:18:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 31, 2017, 09:10:07 AM
    cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio

    http://www.sedevacantist.com/encyclicals/Paul04/cuмex.html
    Yes read it especially number 6:
    "In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-]


    that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:


    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions, and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.


    7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:-
    that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:
    (i) the clergy, secular and religious;
    (ii) the laity;
    (iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;
    (iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains, and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security;
    shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).

    To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.

    8. [The provisions of this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity"
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #129 on: October 31, 2017, 09:23:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 31, 2017, 09:06:44 AM
    I agree.  But that is true because although he tempted Christ, Peter didn't profess a different faith.  
    Our Lord said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church ....", He did not say, "....on this rock I will build my Church, if you ever lose the faith, or, ...if you ever preach heresy, or ....if you ever start another church, you lose your office ipso facto". He never said that and it is not implied anywhere.

    Applying basic Catholic principles, what Our Lord told St. Peter when He made St. Peter the first pope is, basically: "Peter, you're it, I am making you the supreme authority on earth, answerable only to Me - you and your successors knowing that salvation is only possible in my Church, you and your successors had better do your jobs and feed my sheep, or you've had it come your judgement day".
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #130 on: October 31, 2017, 09:26:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on October 31, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
    Yes read it especially number 6:
    "In addition, [by this Our......
    All we are concerned with is the instruction Pope Paul IV gave us - this is what his direction is to us, to let us know the extent of what we are to do in times like this.


    1. In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #131 on: October 31, 2017, 09:28:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 31, 2017, 09:23:11 AM
    Our Lord said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church ....", He did not say, "....on this rock I will build my Church, if you ever lose the faith, or, ...if you ever preach heresy, or ....if you ever start another church, you lose your office ipso facto". He never said that and it is not implied anywhere.

    Applying basic Catholic principles, what Our Lord told St. Peter when He made St. Peter the first pope is, basically: "Peter, you're it, I am making you the supreme authority on earth, answerable only to Me - you and your successors knowing that salvation is only possible in my Church, you and your successors had better do your jobs and feed my sheep, or you've had it come your judgement day"......
    .....And in the mean time I will allow you to help lead others to damnation because I want everyone to still look to you as the visible head of My Church."


    Sorry, not buying it Stubborn.  Never did. Never will.


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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #132 on: October 31, 2017, 09:34:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on October 31, 2017, 09:10:48 AM
    Yes, and Peter today would never recognize Francis as his successor.
    Yes he would, pope Francis faces a worse sufferings than the rest of us by virtue of his office. He not only faces the wrath of almighty God, but also the wrath of Sts. Peter and Paul. That's what awaits him.



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    Peter when He heard Jesus reply to him, did Peter still go on with his suggestion that Jesus change?

    Answer that!
     
    No, he submitted to the Will of God.
     
    Is your current Francis, do you suppose even considering the Will of God?

    Right, St. Peter submitted, and pope Francis hasn't - he only keeps getting worse. IMO, he better correct himself before he dies.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #133 on: October 31, 2017, 09:48:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 31, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
    .....And in the mean time I will allow you to help lead others to damnation because I want everyone to still look to you as the visible head of My Church."


    Sorry, not buying it Stubborn.  Never did. Never will.
    For as basic as it is, it's too bad you havn't or ever will accept it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: I am considering sedevacantism
    « Reply #134 on: October 31, 2017, 11:49:19 AM »
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    • Impudent imps...
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    "Lord, have mercy".
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